SpeakUp with Tim Sipples of IBM from 02/08/99

<TSipples>	Nicky has a lot of companies he's trying to contact, but we may miss many great companies, so please drop him a note.
<TSipples>	PLEASE NOTE: "Open source" software can play here -- it doesn't have to be just commercial.
<TSipples>	And my other comment to kick things off is (for those of you with AS/400 systems or mainframes) to check out IBM's Host On-Demand.
<TSipples>	I just came back from some training on it, and it's dynamite. Let's you use any Java-enabled system (hint: OS/2 :-)) to access a mainframe or AS/400.
<TSipples>	But that doesn't start to do it justice. Very slick 100% Pure Java. Great networking stuff.
<mandie>	TSipples: which version of Java?
<TSipples>	See http://www.software.ibm.com/network/hostondemand. You can even download the entry version or request a CD with the full evaluation version.
<madodel>	Is this a Java version of PComm?
<TSipples>	Java 1.1.4 or later should do it, although in some cases 1.02 may work (re: Host On-Demand).
<TSipples>	Works great under WorkSpace On-Demand, too (of course).
<mandie>	Tsipples: I don't recall seeing all of this in your last announcement?...is this new
<fido2>	TSipples: Will IBM create a better way of managing sharing under o/2?
<TSipples>	Host On-Demand 3.01 just came out the end of January -- very new.
<TSipples>	And now I see we're on to the questions... :-)
<TSipples>	Fido2: Can you elaborate on your question? What don't you like?
<TSipples>	Madodel: "Java version of PComm" -- that's close to the mark.
<TSipples>	Madodel: Close, but not quite, because with ResQ!Net (add-on to Host On-Demand) you can easily turn green screen apps into WWW apps. Very slick.
<TSipples>	Fido2?
<fido2>	It's when you have to share a top directory and go find one directory under it to change the share prop. If there is too much shares on that drive. You get more data needed or somethink like that.
<TSipples>	Fido2: It sounds like you ought to be using drive-level sharing, then. Have you tried that?
<TSipples>	Fido2: I'm still not sure I understand fully.
<TheSeer>	TSipples: what about "resharing" (sharing an object the server is getting from a different server too )
<fido2>	I only need to share just a directory here and there.
<TheSeer>	TSipples: e.g. sharing a NFS-Link or something..
<TSipples>	TheSeer: You can do that with different network drive types (Novell to Warp Server/Peer, NFS to Warp Server/Peer, etc.) But it would bust security to allow resharing beyond that.
<TSipples>	Fido2: That should be OK.
<jadeh>	TSipples: What is the future of NFS? I prefer it to the SMB shares.
<TSipples>	Jadeh: Ask and ye shall receive: NFS is built into Warp Server for e-business.
<Arkay>	cool
<freiheit>	Now to get a client to go along with that . . . :)
<jadeh>	TSipples: Yes, that has been advertised, but what about clients?
<TheSeer>	TSipples: in tcp/ip 4.1 some sort of firewall is implemented. how about 4.2 on aurora ?
<TSipples>	Jadeh: In fact, they beefed it up considerably since the last version: lots of 32-bit code with Java applets (runnable remotely) to control it.
<fido2>	I have install ms office on the server and set as read execute only. But I need to set write access to one dir under it. Os/2 way of doing stuff isn't clean
<TheSeer>	TSipples: and.. will there be some sort of gui to set it up ? ( i just tried auroa for a day. maybe i just didn't open the right window ;) )
<TSipples>	Freiheit: The current IBM NFS Kit is STILL available, and you can install it (with fixpacks) on Warp 4.
<TSipples>	Freiheit: I believe FTP Software also has an NFS client for OS/2.
*	freiheit meant client version of Warp for eBusiness. :)
<mandie>	as in Warp 5.0 :)
<TSipples>	TheSeer: Much the same, although they've added a standard web server (WebSphere/Domino Go) which can be put to use as a proxy server if you wish.
<WarpHoss>	Will Host-on-Demand allow a "100% Java Server Environ" or as close to that as one can get?
<GentleBen>	hmmm
<TSipples>	The Seer: There's a great IBM Firewall book (redbook) which describes much more about the "firewall" in IBM TCP/IP 4.1 (and later) for OS/2 Warp.
<TheSeer>	TSipples: ok.. have to loook that up.. what about email-server ?
<GentleBen>	Tim: Any insight on wether a Warp 5.0 Client will be released?
<TSipples>	Fido2: There should be no problem doing that. I'm still not sure why you say it's not clean.
<TheSeer>	TSipples: with pop/apop/imap/smtp and stuff - for multiple domains prefered ;)
<TSipples>	TheSeer: Probably not, so I'd recommend the redbook for any firewall function.
<TSipples>	Freiheit: There's not a whole lot I'm allowed to say about an "Aurora" client.
<DaBull>	hmm, that must mean it's in the works ;^)
<Arkay>	TSipples: you can tell us. we won't say anything :-)
*	Swanee gives TSipples permission to talk about... you know...
<TSipples>	WarpHoss: You bet. Host On-Demand can be served from practically any web server, run on any Java client, and access any AS/400, mainframe, or ASCII-oriented (VT-style) system.
<DaBull>	otherwise you'd say there is no such product ;^)
<fido2>	TSipples: I have run to this problem a few times. it's that fact that you tring to find a directory in a small box and sometimes you get error no more data available. Once that happens you stuffed.
<mandie>	if he did, he'd have to kill ya!
<DaBull>	HaHAhaHAHa!
<TSipples>	TheSeer: How about Lotus Domino R5?
<TheSeer>	TSipples: that's hell of expensive and overkill for just mailserving..
<TSipples>	Fido2: I can't say I've seen that.
<TSipples>	TheSeer: OK, then how about Hethmon's Bros. INet.Pro e-mail server? www.hethmon.com
<TheSeer>	TSipples: that's the one i actually use.. but i dislike the idea to have an ip for each domain..
<TSipples>	TheSeer: Have you asked them for the enhancement?
<fido2>	TSipples: Maybe I missed something but I can't get os/2 to auto share a new CD.
<TheSeer>	TSipples: sorry, what enhancement ?
<TSipples>	TheSeer: Multiple domains without additional IP addresses?
<TSipples>	Fido2: That really ought to be done at the drive share (not directory share) level. CDs are removeable, and you don't want to have permissions for a changing directory structure.
<WarpHoss>	So theoretically With Host on demand and Aurora I could migrate all my telnet/emulation apps? If that's so Great news!
<fido2>	This is a drive level.
<TSipples>	Fido2: In Warp 4/Warp Server you can do so by logging on as administrator, right clicking on the CD's drive icon (OS/2 System), and then selecting "Manage Access..."
<TSipples>	WarpHoss: Yup!
<TheSeer>	TSipples: ah.. ok.. well.. it was discussed onthe mailinglist.. Paul told "us" that there is no way other then that.. since you don't know from the "plin" pop3-login which domain the user is asking for..
<DaBull>	!rule 1
<VoiceBot>	Rule not found.
<DaBull>	ooops sorry
<TheSeer>	plin = plain
<TSipples>	WarpHoss: And the code's on the web site to order for evaluation.
<WarpHoss>	Gone to get it..
<TheSeer>	TSipples: and inet.mail does not have imap-support..
<TSipples>	TheSeer: Well, that sure sounds like a POP3 protocol limit. You can use IP address aliasing, of course (single system having multiple IP addresses).
<TSipples>	TheSeer: Something like "ifconfig x.y.z.a alias" if memory serves.
<TheSeer>	TSipples: that's what i actually do.. but it's a mess to have 50 IP's for 50 domains ;)
<TSipples>	TheSeer: Well maybe that's worth asking for. I believe Domino does.
<TSipples>	TheSeer: Well, yeah. But it works, right? :-)
<fido2>	TSipples: That different if look at the manging access thr share box is correct rights, but click manging on the drive icon that is no access to it.
<TheSeer>	TSipples: well.. kinda ;) but it's a bad hack.. http tries to get rid of ip-usage and mail still does.. ;)
<TSipples>	Fido2: Can you post a detailed note to comp.os.os2.networking.misc? I'm really not getting a good sense of the problem you're having, and that might get it resolved more easily and quickly.
<fido2>	ok
<TSipples>	TheSeer: (Thinking out loud...) What's the reverse of Network Address Translation (NAT)? Would that work?
<jadeh>	TSipples: Technical question: where does Warp list all it's shared file systems? Under UNIX I'd find shares in a dfstab file, is there an equivalent in Warp?
<TSipples>	Jadeh: Depends on how you're sharing that file system. Do you mean for Warp Server/Warp Peer shares?
<TheSeer>	TSipples: well.. to make it work the server must know on what hostname it has been accessed .. e.g. if the user is asking mail.foo.org or mail.somewhere.com..
<jadeh>	TSipples: yes, peer shares under Warp (I think of it as SMB as opposed to NFS).
<TSipples>	TheSeer: Multiple instances of the server (different ports)?
<TSipples>	Jadeh: That's typically in the NET.ACC file. This is not text readable, though. You can obviously use commands (or GUI) to get the list.
<TheSeer>	TSipples: hmm the port needs to be 110 (for pop3)..
<TSipples>	TheSeer: Yes, that's true, and most e-mail clients expect that.
<TSipples>	TheSeer: Sure seems like a POP3 protocol limit to me. Aliases might be the only option right now.
<TSipples>	Jadeh: Do you know how to do that?
<TheSeer>	TSipples: i dunno if it is possible to find out the hostname the client used to connect to the server..
<jadeh>	TSipples: I presume you mean read the NET.ACC file. No.
<TSipples>	Jadeh: No, actually, which command to use to get a list of drive shares.
<TheSeer>	TSipples: the "other" way would be to just check username/password ... but then the username/Password combo needs to be unique for all domains..
<jadeh>	TSipples: No, but more importantly I'd like to kill a share that has gone away and I have no recollection of the path.
<fido2>	TSipples: Will IBM put generic ne2000 drivers in warp?
<TSipples>	Jadeh: Try NET HELP first. Then you can use NET HELP [command] where [command] is any of the NET commands.
<TSipples>	To view shares you can use NET VIEW \\machinename where machinename is the NetBIOS name (in IBMLAN.INI) of your system.
<TSipples>	(That's at least one way to do it.)
<TheSeer>	TSipples: anyway.. another problem here with peer .. why does NT on startup can't reuse the network-sharing on a Warp4-Box ? but doing a "use x: \\system\path" later still works ?
<TheSeer>	TSipples: it's anyoing ;)
<TSipples>	Fido2: Well, there's an Eagle NE2000 driver in Warp already, but some people have to use other drivers (still available for download).
<TheSeer>	TSipples: and another problem with Windoze98.. some folks report only having 8.3-names in that combo..
<TSipples>	TheSeer: I don't know.
<TheSeer>	(over the net that is..)
<TSipples>	TheSeer: I think there's a service update to LAN Server (and Warp Peer) to allow that (>8.3 names).
<TheSeer>	TSipples: grmpf.. NT can't use the Network-Printer either.. have to use a local lptx: and map that one with net use..
<TSipples>	TheSeer: What service level are you running?
<TSipples>	TheSeer: Well, that one makes sense. NT print sharing is a lot less sophisticated than OS/2 Warp's.
<jadeh>	TSipples: Yes, I know those commands. I shared a directory under Warp, then when the project was over the directory and path were deleted without unsharing first. Upon subsequent boot up I get "One of your shares failed to start" message. NET VIEW does little good. I guess my UNIX background is showing as I'm used to text editing files and locating broken links.
<TSipples>	TheSeer: If you add the IBM Warp Server Client software to NT, though, that should help with printing.
<Arkay>	i've had problems sharing my printer from Win95, even mapping the lpt port, but I haven't tried very hard.
<os2hq>	Howdy, all.
<TSipples>	Jadeh: Right. I think you want a NET SHARE command of some kind.
<TSipples>	Jadeh: Try NET HELP SHARE to start.
<TSipples>	TheSeer: I recommend IP08528 for LAN Server 5.0 (Warp Server) and IP08408 for Warp 4 File/Print Client (Peer).
<rTheSee>	damn.
<rTheSee>	my system just locked up..
<Guest267>	hi
<Guest267>	any guirls from INDIANA
<TSipples>	TheSeer: [repeating] I recommend IP08528 for LAN Server 5.0 (Warp Server) and IP08408 for Warp 4 File/Print Client (Peer).
<jadeh>	TSipples: Thanks for the info.
<mandie>	Guest: this is a VOICE Speakup...not a "hotchat" channel
<os2hq>	Tim: Hi, thanks very much for coming. I was wondering what to do about PlugNPlay network cards and PnP modem cards.... this seems to be the only significant "weak area" for OS/2 drivers. What's new in this area?
<TSipples>	Mandie: Hey, whatever the audience wants... :-) (JUST kidding.)
<mandie>	LOL
<mandie>	Tsipples: you're sure accommodating :)
<Swanee>	TSipples: Can we get whatever we want that easy? I'll take a small client please
<TSipples>	OS2HQ: Ah, yes, Plug and Play. Well, if you can disable it, great. If not, it *usually* works, especially with later fixpacks/drivers.
<rTheSee>	TSipples: thanx.. i'll check that out..
<TSipples>	OS2HQ: Network adapters you really ought to be sticking to PCI, though. Do you have any specifics?
<TSipples>	Swanee: I'll work on it. You do the same!
<os2hq>	Tim: We have dirt-cheap cards over at my workplace (the boss is a Windoze pusher, yech). We have some cheap TX 10/100 PCI cards, no-name stuff.
<Swanee>	Anything you say T
<TSipples>	OS2HQ: And how are those working under OS/2 Warp?
<os2hq>	Tim: We especially have a hard time with PnP 56K PCI modems, we probably pay $20 or $30 wholesale for them.
<os2hq>	Tim: Haven't had time to try the modems -- also been afraid to tell the boss she's all wet! I was hoping there was a workaround for PnP jumperless modems....
<TSipples>	OS2HQ: Truth be told, I've never been a fan of internal modems (except for notebooks). In fact, I'm using a notebook *and* external modem right now.
<os2hq>	The net cards, well, I got one working fine on a LAN Server network, but I don't know if every card she sells has OS/2 drivers on disk.
<rTheSee>	TSipples: talking about modem.. will ISDN be suported by the os now ?
<TSipples>	OS2Hq: Well, they *should* be OK. One option you have there is Ray Gwinn's excellent SIO communications driver for OS/2 Warp, as an alternative to COM.SYS.
<os2hq>	Tim: It's tough working in a cheapjack Windows shop and trying to recommend OS/2 to the customers.
<rTheSee>	(ne need to install cfos or isdnpm to dial out..) ?
<os2hq>	Tim: How does SIO help with a PnP card that has no real IRQ's?
<TSipples>	OS2Hq: Yes, that's true.
<TSipples>	OS2Hq: But you really do get what you pay for. Saving a buck on a network adapter costs 100 times that in labor later on, trying to figure out why something went wrong.
<os2hq>	Yep.
<TSipples>	OS2Hq: PNP cards *do* have IRQs, they just get assigned at bootup.
<os2hq>	Tim: Is there any chance of Gwinn's drivers being standard part of the new OS/2?
<mandie>	and with some extra work..you can force them to use a specific irq
<WarpHoss>	How's that mandie?
<os2hq>	mandie: How do I force an IRQ with OS/2.... I though Hardware Manager was "read only"
<rTheSee>	hehe
<TSipples>	TheSee: ISDN is definitely supported by the base PPP and SLIP (which are agnostic when it comes to the physical connection). And the IBM Global Network dialer supports it, too (for the IBM Network).
<mandie>	I have had a sound card and a network card that wanted to use the same irq
<TSipples>	Os2hq: I don't think so, although it would be nice, I admit.
<Sector>	Some BIOS's allow you to assign an IRQ to a specific PCI slot
<mandie>	I went into pnp bios and selected the irq that I wanted for the network card and the sound card automatically selected a different one
<rTheSee>	TSipples: so i don't need to buy isdnpm for an os/2-internet-gateway anymore ?
<os2hq>	Sec: yeah, that is true.
<jadeh>	TSipples: I've had mixed luck with NIC's. What is a good one? (Recommendation please, PCI, 10/100).
<TSipples>	OS2Hq: But perhaps someone can tell Ray that he ought to e-mail nickyh@us.ibm.com to be a part of the Warp Server for e-business announcement? :-)
<os2hq>	mandie: Good job, I'll have to remember that.
<TSipples>	Mandie: Good point.
<os2hq>	Tim: I'll try to get Gwinn in on that. It would be nice.
<TSipples>	TheSee: Well, you might. I know the Enhanced Remote Access Server (PPP Server) in Warp Server for e-business supports ISDN, but I confess I don't know the details.
<rTheSee>	TSipples: what about ip-masqurading ?
<WarpHoss>	Yeah she's right .. I see it on another monitor. thanks mandie.
<TSipples>	Jadeh: IBM Wake On-LAN 10/100 PCI Ethernet is excellent.
<rTheSee>	TSipples: well.. what i need to do is to have a simple gateway to acces the "outerspace" from the lan..
<TSipples>	Jadeh: It's not the only one, though.
<Arkay>	TheSee: have you tried Injoy Gateway?
*	madodel is using InJoy Gateway which works well.
<rTheSee>	Arkay: for isdn ?
<TSipples>	TheSee: I know InJoy/2 does IP masquerading.
<TSipples>	TheSee: www.fx.dk (FX Communications InJoy/2).
<rTheSee>	TSipples: i know.. ISDNpm does it too.. works ok.. but it's not part of the base os..
<TSipples>	TheSee: Yet another option is to just buy an ISDN router -- everything done in a hardware device.
<rTheSee>	TSipples: i hate to compare os/2 and linux but on linux i can just add ip-masq to a device i like..
<TSipples>	TheSee: Probably the simplest and cheapest approach, since these aren't much more expensive than ISDN modems.
<Klaus>	TSipples: some people don't like shareware on servers, so built-in ip-mascarading would be nice
<TSipples>	TheSee: Well, gosh, we can't build *everything* into the base OS. :-)
<TSipples>	TheSee: Unless we want this new release delayed some more. :-)
<madodel>	what do you think this is OS/2000?
<rTheSee>	TSipples: there is no need to have it "right now".. you may add this for later on software choice ;)
<Arkay>	TSipples: Actually, I think IP Masq should be in the server, but not the client.
<Klaus>	TSipples: try ,-))
<fido2>	TSipples: Unless you are microsoft which tries everything in there os
<TSipples>	Klaus: I'm not dismissing the idea. For all I know it might be in TCP/IP 4.2.1 already, but, if it isn't, we can all lobby for it.
<rTheSee>	TSipples: where's the big difference from 4.1 to 4.2.x btw ?
<TSipples>	Klaus: I know TCP/IP 4.1 included a hidden "firewall" gem (which needed a redbook to document), and a DHCP relay agent (also a redbook item).
<rTheSee>	just a lot of bugfixes makeing a new version ? *G*
<TSipples>	TheSee: NFS is the one you'll notice first, probably. It's built into 4.2.1.
<rTheSee>	ah.. kewl..
<rTheSee>	what about "interaction" of components btw ?
<rTheSee>	like useing the lan-based users and rights on ftp or telnet ?
<Klaus>	TSipples: is it a new version of the NFS? How does it handle acces rights? still the old (not verry performant) way??
<WarpHoss>	TSipples : I have already purchased the base os. If I send Ibm 100$ a year will they keep me up to date?
<TSipples>	TheSee: Well, I do notice that there's been some interesting free software that's come out addressing that.
<TSipples>	TheSee: That is, integrating ftp and telnet into User Profile Management (UPM).
<rTheSee>	argls.. once again third party tools..
<rTheSee>	damn..
<rTheSee>	is ibm to stupid to that on their own code ??
<TSipples>	TheSee: Over time you'll see just about all the user ID/password type of components go to LDAP directory. I don't have a lot of details on it at this point, but you should start seeing that fall into place after mid year.
<rTheSee>	ah.. that sounds to be better ;)
<TSipples>	Klaus: New version, yes. Access rights are handled through a Java-based (meaning you can run it remotely) control applet, in the TCP/IP configuration notebook.
<rTheSee>	TSipples: will there be a way to KILL a task remotely ? ( kill.exe )
<rTheSee>	and don't tell me again there are freeware-tools..
<TSipples>	WarpHoss: Well, yes, you can subscribe to Software Choice.
<rTheSee>	if i have to install 1.000.000 freeware-tools to have a working server i don't need to pay IBM for OS/2.. i'll take linux.
<madodel>	Will a S/w Choice subscription get us a free update to Warp 5 client when it comes out?
<Klaus>	rTheSee: actualy... there's a freeware-tool called linux ,-))
<WarpHoss>	That's what I meant madodel ;-)
<TSipples>	TheSee: Right -- better. Ideally you'll see the LAN Server security, ftp, telnet, etc. all interface to a new LDAP directory. How fast that happens I don't know yet, but that's the (tentative) plan for later this year.
<fido2>	TSipples: Sorry what does LDAP mean?
<TSipples>	TheSee: Yes. Warp Server for e-business includes NetFinity 5.2, and that is web accessible. It allows you to kill tasks (but that's a tiny fraction of its capabilities).
<TSipples>	Madodel: A Software Choice subscription entitles you to any new versions of any products you subscribe to within two years from the start date of your subscription.
<TSipples>	Madodel: Could be zero new releases, could be one, could be more -- you don't know, I can't tell you. But whatever comes, if anything, you get it.
<rTheSee>	TSipples: ok.. so until you'll manage to create that great LDAP-stuff i have to shutdown the server to kill a task if i don't have that needed third-party-kill.exe ?
<TSipples>	TheSee: Well, with Linux you have to install 1,000,000. With Warp Server for e-business you might install just 500,000. :-)
<rTheSee>	grmpf ;)
<Klaus>	Kaanae
<Klaus>	TSipples: do you know, if there will be some notes-clients bundled with aurora?
<TSipples>	Fido2: Lightweight Directory Access Protocol (LDAP). It's an industry standard for security directories.
<madodel>	TSipples: Up to now there really hasn't been anything on SWC for the non-server user that wasn't free.
<TSipples>	TheSee: No, you asked a separate question. NetFinity 5.2 Manager is included with Warp Server for e-business. It (combined with the built in web server) let's you point any browser to your server and kill a task. No extra software required.
<TSipples>	TheSee: It also does FAR more than that.
<TSipples>	Klaus: No, not a Notes client. But there will be a refreshed Communicator (4.04b).
<rTheSee>	oups... sorry.. mixed that up (my paper is having to many lines ;) maybe i should take a bigger peace for notes next time..)
<TSipples>	Madodel: That's true.
<Arkay>	quit
<rTheSee>	What about the rumours of a 4.5 beeing in pipe somewhere ?
<Arkay>	sorry
<TSipples>	Madodel: TCP/IP 4.1 is the major item.
<rTheSee>	Communicator 4.5 that is..
<TSipples>	TheSee: Yes, there are rumors of 4.5. :-)
<rTheSee>	and you're not allowed to talk about ? *g*
<TSipples>	TheSee: Really 4.04 was the big leap, though. With OS/2's first class Java (and a refresh) we're in pretty good browser shape.
*	madodel has TCP/IP 4.2.1 with Aurora. :-)
<rTheSee>	well.. i'm having dozens of problems with it..
*	freiheit wonders why people say Java is so great on OS/2 -- it always seems to drag my system down more than anything. :/
<TSipples>	By the way, don't ask me what happened to TCP/IP 4.2 -- I don't know. :-)
<jadeh>	TSipples: Will the IMAP part of Communicator 4.04b work? It isn't fully compliant in the current version.
<rTheSee>	I'm doing webdesign and ns4.04/2 is some kind of a pain in the ass ;)
<Klaus>	TSipples: Netscpa 4.04 and Java are my biggest stability problems in OS/2 ,((
<TSipples>	Jadeh: Yes, I've heard those complaints. Many IMAP defects have been filed, and I expect the vast bulk of them will be addressed.
<TSipples>	Yes, yes -- understood. 4.04 gets a cleanup soon, and everyone should get it.
<rTheSee>	NS4.04 is blocking the SIQ, it's slow and messy on reload, it does not handle a whole bunch of javascript-errors..
<jadeh>	TSipples: That would answer IMAP client issues. Great!
<TSipples>	Bear in mind that 4.x (from MS or NS) hasn't been a joy on other platforms, either. (No offense intended.)
<rTheSee>	TSipples: what is "soon" in more detailed words ?
<TSipples>	TheSee: Well, soon. :-)
<rTheSee>	grmpf..
<rTheSee>	i'm having baaad problems with it here.. i can't figure out..
<TSipples>	TheSee: But I did say that Warp Server for e-business will include it, so *at least* before then.
<rTheSee>	ok.. hope so :)
<rTheSee>	will the refresh be FASTER btw ?
<TSipples>	By the way, there's some interesting Java-based browser work afoot (and no, I'm not talking only about HotJava).
<rTheSee>	NS4.04/2 is damn slow..
<Klaus>	TSipples: will there be a 2nd beta for auora ?
<rTheSee>	Java is even slower then the worsest windoze-port..
<mandie>	AND you can't tell us about it :)
<TSipples>	TheSee: Agreed. But the 4.x browsers are also slow on other platforms. We're working on it.
<TSipples>	Klaus: We'll call it a "gamma," actually. That's the plan.
<rTheSee>	TSipples: hmm.. NS4.07 on Linux is about 10x faster on most pages.
<rTheSee>	compared to os/2's version.. even the NS4.5 on NT is faster..
<TSipples>	TheSee: I disagree. Java in Netscape Communicator for OS/2 is demonstrably faster.
<rTheSee>	ok.. java.. but the basic rendering (that what the browser should do most of the time ;) ) is a hell but fast..
<TSipples>	TheSee: Well, 4.5 did get some good performance tweaking. Linux is pretty fast on the display part, but its Java needs some performance work.
<rTheSee>	just try to displaye www.zdnet.com/zdnn on os/2 and on linux..
<Klaus>	TSipples: it would be much easier for us, if you'd call the 2nd version of your Netscape 4.04 for OS/2 Netscape 4.04.2 (so our customers can see which version they're using)
<TSipples>	TheSee: I think I'm agreeing with you. :-)
<rTheSee>	ok :)
<TSipples>	Klaus: 4.04b is what I hear. Will that suffice?
<TSipples>	Klaus: "a" was skipped because that would be confused with the original 4.04.
<Klaus>	TSipples: yeah (better than these 9 different 2.02 versions) ,-))
<TSipples>	Klaus: Oh, you remembered that? :-)
<rTheSee>	what about the "changes" NS included from 4.05 to 4.07 ?
<TSipples>	TheSee: Such as
<rTheSee>	dunno ;)
<jadeh>	TSipples: As for SMTP on the new server; will it allow for denial of service to specific domains, or allow service only from specific domains? We suffer from spam reflections. Eric Allman's sendmail (8.9.1a) under UNIX is our only option today for a secure server.
<rTheSee>	but there musta been a reason for them to release updates ;)
<TSipples>	TheSee: You mean security fixes, basically? Those always go into our updates. Our original 4.04 had the 4.06 security fixes, for example.
<TSipples>	Jadeh: I really couldn't say -- I haven't dug that deeply into the new release. Have you tried the beta?
<rTheSee>	so why don't u call it 4.06 then ? *g*
<TSipples>	Jadeh: (Or asked someone who has?)
<TSipples>	TheSee: Contract. Don't ask me why, but it has to do with the contract.
<Klaus>	TSipples/Theseer: 4.07 has some small enhancements (like if you add an username@url you don't have to type your name again when asked for a password (VERRY nice for the Notes-webinterface)
<rTheSee>	ok:)
<Swanee>	TSipples: Back to the java browser you mentioned... can you elaborate?
<TSipples>	Klaus: I'm pretty sure our 4.04 has got that: "http://username:password@www.whatever.com"
<TSipples>	Swanee: No, not really (re: Java browser). :-)
<rTheSee>	TSipples: it has it.. but you sometimes need to login again after selecting a link..
<TSipples>	TheSee: Right. We might consider that a bug, so get it filed as such and see what happens.
<Klaus>	TSipples: that's the point, you won't bookmark it with your passwd, just the username@url and you only have to type the passwd!
<jadeh>	TSipples: I haven't tried the beta. I work in an OS/2 desert ;-)
<TSipples>	Klaus: Yes, good point.
<Klaus>	TSipples: user@passwd works also with 2.02 ,)
<TSipples>	Klaus: Well, even if it does say 4.04b I believe we get a look at the latest Netscape source, so maybe it'll make it in there.
<Klaus>	TSipples: ok, fine
<TSipples>	Jadeh: Might be worth asking someone. I seem to remember (clearing the cobwebs...) that SENDMAIL made a leap in TCP/IP 4.2.1, but don't quote me on that.
<rTheSee>	in the nsos/2-mailinglist rumor has it there'll be a gateway to handle mailto:-links by external apps..
<rTheSee>	any news about that feature ?
<madodel>	TSipples: I have heard that m$ is abandoning Netbios networking in windows2000. Will that have any effect on Warp server?
<TSipples>	I just looked at TCP/IP 4.1 and it has IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL 2.03.
<TSipples>	TheSee: Not sure.
<TSipples>	Madodel: I have not heard that, and I don't think it's the case.
<rTheSee>	TSipples: hmm.. ok... talking about sendmail.. there was a news about an ibm-replacement for sendmail (securesendmail or something..?) .. is there an os/2 version ?
<TSipples>	Madodel: I'm willing to be corrected, but since it would break way too many things I doubt Microsoft would do it. It would make Windows 2000 unable to communicate with NT 4 and Windows 98.
<TSipples>	TheSee: I've heard similar talk, and I just don't know. Cobwebs... :-)
<freiheit>	Thus creating the need to upgrade to NT5.
<freiheit>	And you think they wouldn't do it? :)
<TSipples>	TheSee: Best bet is to check with someone who has TCP/IP 4.2.1 and find out what's in there.
<madodel>	I can't remember where I read it but something to the efect that they were going to a TCP/IP based networking and phasing out Netbios.
<rTheSee>	TSipples: and.. will there be a SHH-client/server for aurora ?
<TSipples>	Freiheit: I do.
<TSipples>	Freiheit: Too radical -- would slow adoption of Windows 2000.
<TSipples>	Freiheit: And it may be in enough trouble already.
<madodel>	Well there is always windows2001
<rTheSee>	and before you again start with freeware-tools.. there is *NO* really working ssh for os/2..
<jadeh>	I'd like to ssh as well.
<TSipples>	Madodel: That's probably the usual dose of marketing hype. What they may try to get rid of is NETBEUI, but not NetBIOS. (They use NetBIOS over TCP/IP a.k.a. TCPBEUI today and call it TCP/IP.)
<TSipples>	Madodel: In short, relax. We do TCPBEUI just fine.
<Klaus>	TSipples: a ssh-server would be verry helpful for server administration
<TSipples>	TheSee: How far are we on your wishlist? :-)
<rTheSee>	hehe.. well.. if you want to i can add a lot of stuff ;)
<TSipples>	Klaus: Can you elaborate? How would it be helpful in the Warp Server context?
<rTheSee>	why do you have a telnetd ?
<Klaus>	TSipples: so you can administrate the server without sending unencrpted passwords over the network
<rTheSee>	telnet over internet is the biggest security hole ever..
<TSipples>	Klaus: Ah -- that's what NetFinity does. Just point your web browser and administer to your heart's content.
<TSipples>	TheSee: The telnetd security was beefed up in TCP/IP 4.1, BTW. I'm not sure if it meets your needs or not.
<rTheSee>	TSipples: so you tell me i should webbrowse the textmode app running onthe server ;)
<Klaus>	TSipples: maybee there's no netfinity on the machine where i have to administer the warp-server (solaris or linux)?
<TSipples>	Klaus: You can even get a command line THROUGH THE WEB BROWSER. Neat, no?
<Klaus>	TSipples: so a ssh is much more common than netfinify..
<Klaus>	TSipples: ans sometimes i like the commandline ,-))
<TSipples>	TheSee: Yes, I am.
<Klaus>	TSipples: ok, that's cool
<SteveS>	What is ssh that you are talking about?
<rTheSee>	Secure Shell..
<rTheSee>	a SSL-encrypted telnet in short ;)
<TSipples>	Klaus: Doesn't have to be. A web browser (client) is all that's needed... NetFinity runs on the server as the management agent.
<TSipples>	Klaus: Command line? No problem.
<rTheSee>	TSipples: what about speed ? textmode is fast :)
<TSipples>	Klaus: It's got a raft of other administration capabilities, like performance monitoring, task monitoring/killing/launching, hardware detection, etc.
<rTheSee>	TSipples: and.. what do i do if i have to work on *nix systems ? *g*
<Klaus>	TheSeer and ssh even faster than telnet (compression)
<TSipples>	TheSee: NetFinity Manager is fast, especially when you point your web browser to it to get a command line. :-)
<TSipples>	TheSee: Run your web browser on Linux and POINT IT TO WARP SERVER FOR E-BUSINESS?
<rTheSee>	TSipples: i believe that netfinity is great.. but there might a lot of fucntion where still the "basic" way is needed..
<TSipples>	(Why don't people believe me on this? :-))
<rTheSee>	TSipples: no no.. the otherway around..
<Klaus>	TSipples: I'll run lynx on linux and i'll try to get the commandline of the warp-server ,)
<rTheSee>	TSipples: the os/2-server is in need to get information from a linux-box..
<TSipples>	In Warp Server for e-business the vast bulk of system management is all possible through a web browser, including NFS configuration, TCP/IP stack and daemon configuration, etc.
<TSipples>	Klaus: Has to be a graphical web browser, I believe, but some function even there may be available.
<rTheSee>	TSipples: that rocks.. but even the WPS is having a OS/2-Command-window ;)
<TSipples>	BTW, Warp Server for e-business is also a Tivoli endpoint, for those of you with enterprise system management needs...
<Klaus>	TSipples: is it true that the jfs-performance in the network is slower than hpfs386 ??
<Klaus>	(file/dataserver)
<TSipples>	TheSee: And, by the way, NetFinity Manager can be purchased separately (or downloaded for today's Warp Server from Software Choice).
<TSipples>	Klaus: As a pure file server, that's true at the moment. Still some tuning going on, so the final benchmarks aren't in yet. But we knew HPFS386 was a screamer, and so it'll be tough to beat. But it'll probably be close.
<TSipples>	Klaus: As an application server, though, JFS has a lot of advantages.
<Klaus>	TSipples: sure it has, but we all would love to have both advantages, performance and a journaled FS ;-)
<TSipples>	Klaus: By the way, HPFS386 is still supported by Warp Server for e-business, so if you're using it now you can keep on using it. You can even buy it separately and add it to Warp Server for e-business if you want.
<TSipples>	Klaus: Well, we give you the choice.
<rTheSee>	what about local security on the server btw ?
<TSipples>	TheSee: Local Security has been in Warp Server Advanced, and frankly it wasn't very popular.
<rTheSee>	i never had the chance to work with WarpServer ADV... :/
<TSipples>	TheSee: Frankly I would recommend encryption on the hard disk, and that we (IBM) do have.
<TSipples>	TheSee: It's an add-on because of international rules (can't include that for export), and because we have card-based encryption key systems (among others), but it is available.
<TSipples>	TheSee: Local security is fine, but you can get past it really easily with a boot diskette if your hard disk isn't encrypted. And then, what's the point?
<TSipples>	TheSee: You should have locked up the server console anyway.
<rTheSee>	sure.. just wondered about it..
<TSipples>	Whole bunch of new security stuff coming out from IBM this year, by the way.
<Klaus>	TSipples: so SafeGuard Pro is still the only way to get a secure system..
<rTheSee>	might be good to have a "slave" to be able to restart an app, clear the printer-queue but that's it...
<TSipples>	TheSee: One big personal complaint I have is U.S. export law, which still makes it difficult to do business internationally. An awful lot of IBM's business is international.
<TSipples>	Klaus: Or something similar.
<freiheit>	Hence the "I". :)
<Swanee>	any encryption work has be be done offshore?
<TSipples>	TheSee: Well all that you can now do without going to the server console (web browser), so why bother?
<Klaus>	TSipples: maybee IBM should move it's HQ to europe ,-)
<TSipples>	Freiheit: Right. It's a big burden, designing a product which meets U.S. needs but which can legally be sold abroad, and then figuring out how to support one common codebase. Gets very tough.
<TSipples>	Klaus: As long as we were willing to give up our business with the U.S. Government. (Not! :-))
<rTheSee>	TSipples: well.. you know stardock's object-security ? *g* something like that... (enhanced by controll of the windowlist ;) )
<TSipples>	TheSee: I do see your point. It just didn't make the list, though, since the server is now so controllable remotely (in a secure way).
<Swanee>	TheSeer: They'd have to get rid of the api's for it too then
<TSipples>	TheSee: What's interesting, though, is the whole WorkSpace family of products which is very secure indeed.
<TSipples>	TheSee: The Security Enabling Services are still very important, though, and those are updated in the new release (SMP support, etc.)
<TSipples>	I could talk for hours upon hours about security, but I see that I have six minutes left. :-)
<rTheSee>	TSipples: well.. WSOD has it.. that's why i don't get the point why it's not included into the server ;) or "client"
<rTheSee>	hehe
<TSipples>	TheSee: Server console is a little different.
<rTheSee>	is it? *g*
<SCarter>	Any news on updates to the LAN Server for Macintosh add-on?
<TSipples>	TheSee: Well, yes -- I'll concede that it is.
<rTheSee>	i can make my warp4-desktop to become a server by just starting a service ;)
<Klaus>	TSipples: is there a built in firewall in Warp Server for e-business ?
<TSipples>	SCarter: No, except that it will continue to be supported under the new server. There was some push to get it included as a standard feature in the same package, but that probably won't happen.
<rTheSee>	heya.. another guy to bother with questions ? *G*
<mandie>	persell: hi :)
<persell>	Hey all
<SCarter>	TSipples: Gotcha. Thanks.
<Swanee>	Hi Mike!
<TSipples>	Klaus: "Firewall" function is as far as I'll go on that. As in, read our redbook.
<Abraxas>	Good evening, Mike
<WarpHoss>	Bravo Mike! an honour to have you visit.
<TSipples>	Hi, Mike. Do I owe you a call?
<TSipples>	:-)
<persell>	I don't know...lost track
<TSipples>	Me too. :-)
<Abraxas>	TSipples you bringing in reinforcements?
<TSipples>	Abraxas: Well, I guess so. Surprise reinforcements (to me, anyway). :-)
<Klaus>	TSipples: will apache be bundled with the new server?
<StevenL>	More like 2nd shift given the time.
<TSipples>	Klaus: No, and you should see my note in comp.os.os2.announce about that.
<Swanee>	persell: We've had Tim tied up with as many Aurora questions as networking q's. I'll bet he wishes you had shown up earlier. :-)
<rTheSee>	Klaus: doubt that.. they have domino..
<rTheSee>	hehe
<TSipples>	Yes, golly, it's been taxing. :-)
<Swanee>	:)
<TSipples>	Darn it, why isn't anyone asking how to hook OS/2 Warp to Banyan Vines? :-)
<Klaus>	rTheSee: just saw something in the press about "IBM supports apache" or something like that
<persell>	It's not that bad...just read 6 lines ahead and back
<TSipples>	Klaus: Yup -- IBM supports Apache. Read the note in comp.os.os2.announce -- it explains what's happening.
<Abraxas>	Banyan ... does anyone still use that?
*	freiheit has no idea what Banyan Vines is.
<persell>	I got a killer for you Tim
<TheSeer>	btw apache/2... is it true that NS4.04 and apache running on the same system creates a major slowdown ?
<TSipples>	Persell: Question for me? Shoot.
<TheSeer>	or is that just my system ;/
<TSipples>	TheSeer: That's just you... :-)
<freiheit>	TheSeer, I've run both on the same system with no problem (though granted I only serve for myself).
<TheSeer>	freiheit: did you try to reload stuff ? *G*
<persell>	On an otherwise very fast Warp Server network...file save in a Win32 app from an NT client is dead slow. NetBIOS file transfers are lightning fast
<freiheit>	TheSeer, I use it for Server-Side-Includes which I'm told cause a slowdown in and of themselves.
<freiheit>	Works fine, though.
<Klaus>	TSipples so what can you tell us about Banyan Vines?
<TSipples>	Persell: REALLY... Hmmm... With the Primary Logon Client?
<persell>	Primary or Coordinated
<TSipples>	Persell: Time to break out DatagLANce?
<TSipples>	Persell: I'd be curious as to what's coming across the wire from the client.
<persell>	Me and the Dataglance are heading there...I suspect the packet is much different
<TSipples>	Klaus: Why, how to connect Vines to OS/2 Warp. But it's too esoteric for tonight. :-)
<Klaus>	TSipples: so another question to an IBM-Freeware tool, will there be any update on File Phoenix? (it dosn't work with big partitions)
<persell>	Any Aurora questions left?
<TSipples>	Persell: Is this NETBEUI or TCPBEUI?
<persell>	TSipples: NetBEUI
<TSipples>	Klaus: Probably since it's free, no, so you might want to check out the Gammatech or Graham utilities for file undelete on HPFS.
<TheSeer>	TSipples: btw... how do i get rid of a ZIP-Media if it's shared ? *g* i can't eject it if the "network" used it..
<TSipples>	Klaus: Or just turn on the UNDELETE command.
<TSipples>	TheSeer: Even after disabling the share?
<TheSeer>	TSipples: yes.
<TSipples>	Persell: OK. Do you know what network adapter is in the server?
<TheSeer>	TSipples: btw zip. the warp4 and AURORA install can't handle an EMPTY ZIP-Drive..
<TSipples>	Persell: Service level for LS 5?
<Abraxas>	persell will the Aurora Gamma be distributed like the Beta was (5000+) or is it to be a smaller distribution?
<TheSeer>	warp4 just fails to use it, but aurora install trap'd on me..
<TSipples>	TheSeer: Boo, hiss. We'll have to fix that. Report it!
<persell>	TheSeer: Fixed that in Aurora
<TheSeer>	persell: ok :)
<TSipples>	Persell: (Good news re: Zip drive install fix in Aurora.)
<persell>	TSipples: 10/100 EtherJets on a switched 100 Ethernet Network
<TSipples>	Persell: I do hate ethernet, but that should be OK. :-)
<persell>	Abraxas: Gamma is very limited because the support is so intense and the code is close to GA
<WarpHoss>	Persell: if ya need beta tester I'm yur guy.
<TheSeer>	TSipples: question again.. can i install an app needing changes to the libpath without rebooting the server now ??
<Abraxas>	persell OK ... that's what I figured
<TSipples>	Persell: Are they at IP08528? MPTS 08424 or 08610?
<mandie>	WarpHoss: along with the other 4999 guys :)
<TheSeer>	(i know i can do that by using tvfs most of the time..)
<TSipples>	TheSeer: Um, you already can, more or less. BEGINLIBPATH?
<persell>	TSipples: FP 38, 8528 and 8610
<TheSeer>	TSipples: well.. yes.. I Can.. but no app does really use it..
<Klaus>	TSipples: ah one more question, will Aurora be preinstalled on the Netfinity Servers for e-business ?
<WarpHoss>	mandie : and gals I presume ...
<mandie>	:)
<TSipples>	Persell: I'm not a big fan of 8610, remember. :-) Maybe worth replicating on 08424 if you're otherwise scratching your head.
<TSipples>	Persell: Do you get the same result on other servers?
<TheSeer>	TSipples: argls.. how about changeing the names of fixpacks to something even non-ibm-gurus can keep in mind ? *g*
<TSipples>	Klaus: My guess is it'll be a ServerGuide option, yes.
<persell>	TSipples: I don't suspect the basic network. Common NETBEUI is solid and fast
<TSipples>	TheSeer: Persell and I are talking shorthand. (He knows what 8610 is. :-))
<persell>	TSipples: Correct on the ServerGuide but it'll take a newer release of ServerGuide
<TSipples>	Persell: OK. Maybe in the IBMLAN.INI, then (as in how LS is using NETBEUI)?
<TSipples>	Persell: Or are you saying stuff like COPY commands works well?
<persell>	TSipples: Yeah, that's whats confusing here...copy and xcopy are lightning fast
<TheSeer>	TSipples: ok.. ;) anyway.. why does IBM still use those damn "DSK"-Formats (and keeps telling you have to make disks to use it )
<TSipples>	Persell: OK. Sounds like client side trouble then (maybe even application related).
<persell>	TheSeer: DSK is also DOS compatable
<TheSeer>	i actually found "dskextarct" or something like that though.. but it's again "shadow-marketing" a la IBM ;)
<TSipples>	TheSeer: LOADDSKF is on your Warp 4 CD.
<Klaus>	persell: zip would be doc-compatible too ,-)
<TheSeer>	you won't tell me, having x Gig free on harddisk have to FLOPPY-DISKS to install a fixpack ??
<persell>	KLAUS: We don't own ZIP though
<TheSeer>	i don't have a problem with the DSK-format..
<TSipples>	Klaus: You know, apparently diskettes are still a big deal outside the U.S. (there's that "I" in our name again).
<Klaus>	TSipples: noone wants to unpack this fixes on disk, we rather download it and install it from HD
<TSipples>	Klaus: I keep hearing that international customers prefer it still.
<TheSeer>	i just hate that ibm hides the possibility that you can write the dsk-file to the hdd..
<Klaus>	TSipples: i'm from germany, and noone uses disks here anymore
<TSipples>	TheSeer: Fixpacks you generally don't have to install from diskettes (e.g. base fixpacks).
<TSipples>	Klaus: Well, Germany is relatively modern.
<TSipples>	Klaus: :-)
<Klaus>	TSipples: so DIUnpack included in the kicker disks and a rexx script to unpack it and install it would be enough..
<Klaus>	TSipples: and it' s a job done in 5 mins.
<TSipples>	TheSeer: LCD: Lowest Common Denominator. Sometimes we revert back to that, where absolutely needed.
<TheSeer>	the problem is the diunpack does not work on ALL types of dsk..
<TheSeer>	and there *IS* a tool doing all types i know of..
<Abraxas>	Klaus I've been installing Fixpaks from my Hard DRive for quite a while. Instructions and links are on my website (http://www.members.iquest.net/~dcasey)
<TheSeer>	so i just wonder why IBM keeps "lying" on us..
<Abraxas>	Klaus you can use the dsk format or the zip fromat (both downloadable from IBM
<Klaus>	Abraxas: I do this too, but it would be nice if everybody could do this not only OS/2 gurus and TemOS/2-members ,-)
<TSipples>	There are literally a million ways to install fixpacks, only one of which is by cutting diskettes.
<Prez>	networking question...I have an OS/2 machine on Novell that has LPD running and takes AS/400 print jobs (LPR) and then puts them on Novell queues. The ones where I can capture Novell queues to LPT ports work fine..if I try to create a Network ...
<TSipples>	The best way, for the vast majority of people (individuals), is to use RSU.
<Prez>	printer object and LPD jobs get stuck at the printer until anotehr job comes after it and "pushes" it out...is there a way to make the printer objects work same as captured LPT ports?
<mandie>	RSU rulez!
<TSipples>	Folks, I'm going to sign off here in a couple minutes. I need my dinner, even if it is late. :-)
<Abraxas>	mandie it does on a 128k ISDN line :-)
<persell>	Nothing like cable Dan
<Klaus>	TSipples: thanks for the speakup
<TSipples>	Prez: LPRMON does that, I believe.
<mandie>	TSipples: Thanks so much for coming tonight!! We've enjoyed your input as usual
*	Swanee thinks mandie is getting back to her street gang roots
<StevenL>	Thanks Tim.
<mandie>	Swanee: hehe
<Abraxas>	TSipples Thanks for coming ... and thanks for staying late (we've gone almost 20 minutes past our scheduled time)
<Prez>	lprmon, ok will look into that..thanks
<SCarter>	TSipples: Thanks for the talk.
<mandie>	Abraxas: I love the 128K and can't wait for modem :)
<persell>	See ya Tim
<WarpHoss>	swanee : mail me.
<TSipples>	Prez: Try LPRMON -?
<Abraxas>	persell I've been hounding Comcast for over a year for cable (in Indy) .... no answers, yet :-(
<WarpHoss>	Tim : Thanks million!
<TSipples>	Persell: I think we need to chat...
<Swanee>	Thank you Tim. You're a bastion of knowledge. (whatever that is) :-)
<Prez>	TSipples: ok, because as is right now, I'm limited to 9 printes (Novell's 9 LPT caputres)
<WarpHoss>	Watch your language swanee ;-)
<mandie>	LOL
<Swanee>	WarpHoss: Ok, it's been a while
<persell>	I can call you if you need Tim
<freiheit>	Quick question for the IBM'ers (if you don't mind) -- I'm unable to get my LPT1 port to use ECP mode in OS/2. BIOS is set up for it but Warp 4 (fp8) using the bi-directional parallel drivers just won't do ECP. Any suggestions?
<TSipples>	Prez: It may not be the answer, but it's worth looking at.
<TSipples>	Persell: That would be great. I have to ask for more info on you-know-what.
<TheSeer>	anyway.. n8 folks ;)
*	TheSeer is Away (I'm not here, am I ?)
<persell>	Oh its cold again
<mandie>	if only WE "knew what"
*	Klaus is Away (Sleepin')
<Swanee>	Night TheSeer
<TSipples>	Persell: Well, I should be reasonably available tomorrow... Thanks!
<persell>	E-mail me Tim I can even call tonight!
<TSipples>	Persell: No, that's OK. :-)
<Swanee>	TSipples: I don't know what... lean over here and whisper it to me. I won't tattle...
<TSipples>	Good night, all!
<mandie>	g'nite Tim
<persell>	Goodnight
<Swanee>	Good night Tim
<Blackbird>	persell has a cable modem like me
<WarpHoss>	and the big wigs sail off on their golf cart...
<Swanee>	DARN, Mike dissappeared to quick for a goodbye
<mandie>	or a hug :)
<mandie>	nytol :)
<WarpHoss>	nite night mandie!
<freiheit>	Later all! Log of tonight's session will be on the VOICE website tomorrow. (http://www.os2voice.org/)
<Blackbird>	freiheit didn't get an answer to his question
<freiheit>	It's not of dire importance.
<Abraxas>	hanks to everyone for attending tonight's meeting
<freiheit>	Printer works, just not as well as I wish it would. :)
<Abraxas>	Thanks, even (geez, it's getting tired in here)