SpeakUp with Brad Wardell of Stardock from 06/14/99

<mandie>	b_wardell: welcome!!! :)
<Ltning>	dink: warp5 one
<JE_Hoover>	the aurora one of course ;)
<dink>	hmm ok
<Ltning>	hi b_wardell
<mandie>	Longstaff: danke :)
<^Piggy^>	hi b_wardell
<Isxios>	good evening all
<JE_Hoover>	ho b_wardell
<mandie>	Isxios: g'evening :)
<Drifter_>	Brad Wardell is a frog boy?
<b_wardell>	yep
<JE_Hoover>	might explain a few things ;)
<Swanee>	hehe
<dink>	ahahahah
<Drifter_>	thats where I got those warts from :)
<mandie>	b_wardell: did you make the mtg last Thursday?
<^Piggy^>	b_wardell: So what are we doing here tonight?
<mandie>	Tim!!! welcome
<b_wardell>	yea but you weren't there. We demoed Aurora.
<Ltning>	hi Tim-IBM
<mandie>	b_wardell: you might want to change your nick to simplify things here :)
<Swanee>	Hi Tim-IBM!!
<Isxios>	I, personally, am here to say thanks to Brad for all the good work SD has done
<^Piggy^>	Drifter_: Those are genital warts.
<Abraxas>	Hello, Tim
<mandie>	oopss...it is the real Brad :)
<mandie>	abraxas: it's him :)
<Nenad>	hi mr Sipples
<b_wardell>	Thanks.
<Projects>	mandie! didn't see you sneak in :)
<Swanee>	mandie: duh! hahaha
<mandie>	swanee: you might want to do a /wi on b_wardell and you'll see why :)
*	Sector thinks mandie likes to slip in the back door
<mandie>	but only he would have know what I was talking about :)
<mandie>	no back doors on my server :)
<Wardell>	(just to add to confusion :)
<Ltning>	mandie: I bet l.exe does the trick ;)
<Tim-IBM>	Hello and good evening (in many time zones)...
<Swanee>	mandie: I knew he was frogboy. :-)
<mandie>	swanee: you been hanging in the swamp again :)
<b_wardell>	On our #stardock channel (on EFNet) I'm usually on as FrogBoy.
<mandie>	brad: you had a couple of us fooled :)
<Ltning>	For your information: The DoS attack recently discovered on Linux 2.2.x kernels ALSO TAKES OUT OS/2 MACHINES!!!!!!
<Swanee>	mandie: But I didn't let on completely because I figured he was in cognito
*	Abraxas clears his throat (and typing finger)
<b_wardell>	Mandie: You're on MediaOne now right?
<mandie>	swanee: ahh, didn't want to blow his cover :)
<mandie>	brad: nope..that's not my cable co
<Swanee>	mandie: You got it. I can be discreet. :-)
<b_wardell>	Ah.
<Isxios>	this my first Voice thing, so how do you guys organize here?
<mandie>	we have Comcast
<mandie>	still 128K ISDN
<^Piggy^>	Lets get to some news.... I hope. :)
<b_wardell>	heh heh. You should switch then.
<Nenad>	Isxios: they don't :)
<b_wardell>	Cable modems are so much nicer.
*	Abraxas clears his throta, AGAIN!!
<Isxios>	oh
<b_wardell>	I can access my work machines from home.
<madodel>	What the hell does he want?
<Ltning>	I guess there's a reason why brad came here today - or I'll be disappointed :)
<Nenad>	and your home machines from work... :)
<Swanee>	Isxios: Once we start, just Listen and speak when you feel there is a space
<Isxios>	ok
<Isxios>	I figured that
<Drifter_>	ya but @home complain's about such little things like ftpd servers :)
<b_wardell>	Well, Mandie and Co. asked me to talk to VOICE and see if there were any questions. We can also talk about the Warp client a bit though details are still a bit sketchy.
<madodel>	Has this begun?
<Swanee>	Isxios: We may moderate but that remains to be seen...
<mandie>	drifter: that's what I heard :(
<Ltning>	Drifter_: haha.. only 1.6gig/day..
<Ltning>	..upstream..
<mandie>	I run the ftpd, httpd and ircd
<Abraxas>	VOICE would like to take this opportunity to welcome Brad Wardell (Stardock) to this evenings Speakup
<Isxios>	Warp client?
<mandie>	shh :)
*	TheSeer chears :)
<Fuzy|ogic>	big crowd...
<dink>	southpark movie june 30th =)
*	_Pilot is severely lagging :(((
<Abraxas>	In the recent past, all of the VOICE Speakups have been open and unmoderated, and we'd like to start out this evening with the same format
*	Swanee applauds politely... while standing... fo quite a while
<Ltning>	We'll try to behave.
<TheSeer>	*g*
<Nenad>	Ltning: don't behave, shut up :)
<dink>	yo da_man =)
*	Drifter_ slaps duct tape on himself
<jjurban>	behave? me? well I'll try.
<Abraxas>	If the "room" becomes too noisy and cluttered with questions coming from all directions, we'll have to go to a moderated session
<dink>	drifter_: shh be quiet about the ducttape......
<^Piggy^>	shhhhhhh
<mandie>	jjurban!!! hi :)
<DA_MAN>	hi dink ..wuz up/
<dink>	just chilllin
<Longstaff>	we, uhh, only need to worry about moderating the forum when drumpig shows up :)
<DA_MAN>	has the speakup session started?
<Nenad>	first of all, I want to protest why this starts so late for us from Europe! now you can continiue... :)
<TheSeer>	Nenad: *g*
<madodel0>	Aren't all you folks over there on holiday?
<Isxios>	perhaps a changing in the laws of physics so that the entire earth could be on the same time frame would do
*	Swanee checks Abraxas's typing finger for a case of the "slows"
<mandie>	let's get the show on the road plz
<TheSeer>	Isxios: well.. any hour earlier will help.. ;)
<golan>	madodel0 : on holiday in Europe?
<TheSeer>	it's 2 am here..
<maximum>	Brad, why a new OS/2 client?
*	Drifter_ mumbles from under the duck tape, "so when can we ask questions?"
<b_wardell>	Ok, let's start with questions and such. I'll answer any questions anyone has.
<mandie>	abraxas must be having problems
<Abraxas>	Brad, I'll turn the meeting over to Brad
<golan>	theseer: yeah, and we do have to get up early tomorrow!
<b_wardell>	Let me first start off with a brief explaination on Stardock and then I'll anser the OS/2 Client question.
<TheSeer>	golan: don't tell me ;)
<b_wardell>	Stardock is an OS/2 ISV which started in 1994 by producing Galactic Civilizations (a game for OS/2)
<b_wardell>	After that game's success, Stardock got into other software for OS/2 such as Object Desktop, Process Commander, OS/2 Essentials, and a numer of other OS/2 games and utilities.
<Frogger>	Ribbet!
<b_wardell>	In 1996, Windows NT 4.0 came out (booh) and the OS/2 market from an end user's perspective declined rather drastically. It coincided with IBM's release of Warp 4 which was largely targeted at the corporate only market (as opposed to Warp 3).
<Nenad>	yes..?
<b_wardell>	About a year ago, IBM began talking about Aurora and that they would probably just pursue going after the server market and not even do a client after Warp 4.
<Isxios>	boo IBM
<b_wardell>	At that point, we started talking to IBM about potentially licensing Aurora and turning that into a client.
<mandie>	and the answer we've all been waiting for..........
<b_wardell>	I asked Tim (the guy who just had a ping time out) from IBM to join us so that we can more easily...discuss what can and can't be talked about.
<b_wardell>	(Tim has returned).
<dink>	what about fixes for OD? Everyone I know (personally) with OD installed has wps freezes up the wah-zoo
<b_wardell>	Much of our discussions with IBM are confidential but some details we can talk about.
<mandie>	can we start with what "can't" be talked about :)
<b_wardell>	heh.
<Isxios>	:)
<mandie>	Blacky!! welcome
<JE_Hoover>	brad - is it likely we will see a product that could be called a warp client (YES / NO)
<b_wardell>	Well, I can say that discussion are ongoing and looking pretty positive right now. IBM's a big company and a project like this needs the approval of a lot of people.
<^Piggy^>	dink: I actaully don't have OD freeze ups.
<b_wardell>	JE_hoover: Very probable.
<dink>	hmm..
<Pilot>	so, do you have any agreement ?
<Nenad>	b_wardell: from IBM or Stardock?
<b_wardell>	No.
<dink>	Piggy: well, some ppl have severe lockups w/OD installed
<mandie>	are you even close to an agreement?
<b_wardell>	Stardock and IBM are still trying to determine the arrangement.
<^Piggy^>	dink: I know.... but I don't. :)
<b_wardell>	I'll let Tim-IBM answer that.
<dink>	lucky you
<Isxios>	some people have sever lockups without it installed. Let's just listen
<Drifter_>	b_wardell: Why a new client though, Warp 4 is a good client, has a good install base, and a great fixpack team, if IBM would just add more features to it, like thru software choice, they would be better off
<Pilot>	maybe draft???
<dink>	isxios: the funny thing is, when they uninstall OD, it stops locking up, so go figure..
<^Piggy^>	shhhhh
<sehh>	Drifter_: warp4 is out-dated, old, has no real multimedia support
<Isxios>	SHHH
<Blacky>	Mandie - Hi, looks like it's busy tonight.
<Ltning>	Tim doesn't seem to want to be with us.
<b_wardell>	Drifter: Well, first off, Warp 4 is become an aging OS. It's not Year 2K compliant out of the box for instance, there have been numerous driver advancements as well as technological advancements in OS/2 since then that can be found in aurora.
<golan>	it seems that tim-ibm is having problems
<TheSeer>	looks like Tim is not going to answer anything..
<Nenad>	Tim-IBM is using outdated client, I guess :)
<dink>	Drifter_: yea, I'm happy with warp4 + latest fixpak.. I see no reason to shell out more money (that I don't have in the 1st place) for a client update...
<Ltning>	KuiSa-Ka! :)
<KuiSa-Ka>	Ltning :)
<Klaus>	sehh: do you think a stardock client has a new mmos2??
<Isxios>	If he's on NT, I'll die laughing
<Swanee>	Let's let brad and tim fill us in on what they want to say and they will let us know when they will answer questions.
<b_wardell>	dink: That's your choice. You could also have stayed with Warp 2.11 which many were happy with.
<Drifter_>	b_wardell: But is could be retrofitted
<sehh>	Klaus: i don't know and i don't think so
<KuiSa-Ka>	hi, ppl!
<dink>	2.11 has crummy tcp/ip support
<Isxios>	FOCUS People
<b_wardell>	Aurora not only is SMP out of the box, it has mcuh better networking and device driver support. It has a new file system (JFS) and numerous other advantgages (if you check out the Aurora specs, you'll see what I mean).
<golan>	b_wardell: Y2k is coming fast. Are you talking or are you thinking of a possible client before Dec 31?
<Nenad>	2.11 had no artchron, either
<_jm>	Let's hear what Tim has to tell us
<Drifter_>	b_wardell: Would IBM or Stardock manage technical support for this new OS, who would continue fixpack development.
<TheSeer>	Nenad:
<sehh>	b_wardell: device driver support? it that why all the old sound drivers don't work?
<b_wardell>	IBM Aurora fixpacks would work on this client.
<^Piggy^>	C'mon people. Let him speak.
<dink>	the only thing os/2 really needs is new drivers...
<Drifter_>	b_wardell: I know about the advantages of Aurora, but these were all built onto a Warp 4 base right?
<Nenad>	TheSeer: funny, but that Art tool never connected to anything over the Internet
<TheSeer>	b_wardell: what about multimedia stuff.. the mmos/2 is kinda buggy...
<b_wardell>	A Stardock/IBM client would be Aurora plus new specific components.
<Tim-IBM>	Sorry folks, I'm back.
<JE_Hoover>	b_wardell - How do we know that as a client developement company you will provide reasonable support for developers ... I have never known stardock to be particularly helpful regarding problems with OD so how do we know that you would not provide the same level of service to your warp client
<TheSeer>	Drifter: aurora has a new kernel..
<TheSeer>	root on irc ;)
<b_wardell>	JE_Hoover, Well, for one thing, we would make no promises of that kind. We would instead invest in creating an infrastructure similar to what exists on Linux.
*	Nenad wonders why Tim is not using Java IRC client :)
<b_wardell>	We would try to get the OS/2 communinity to be more self-sufficient. Create an organization that works together to find out what needs to be written and how to go about writing it.
<jjurban>	Please, I'd like to hear what Brad and Tim have to say first. Then we can all quibble.
<b_wardell>	We would also include developer tools with the client.
<Frogger>	brad: Open Source????
<b_wardell>	No.
<b_wardell>	Not open source.
<^Piggy^>	great
<dink>	if you're going to make it like linux, then how about just release it free
<dink>
<b_wardell>	Open Source is more of a marketing phenomenon than a reality.
<sehh>	dink: the corporate marked wouldn't like that
<b_wardell>	OS/2 can already be greatly expanded and enhanced without giving away source code because of the way IBM designed it.
<Ltning>	b_wardell: i have to agree there.
<b_wardell>	Try doing an Object Desktop on Linux, for instance without source code to linux.
<Ltning>	but the bugs...
<Isxios>	all software has bbugs
*	Drifter_ gets out his bug spray
<b_wardell>	On OS/2, because it was designed for it, a program like Object Desktop can be created without source code because OS/2 was designed from the beginning for an active third party development community.
<sehh>	from what i know, warp5 client exists and its ready..
<TheSeer>	b_wardell: what about multimedia stuff.. the mmos/2 is kinda buggy...
<sehh>	hmm
<b_wardell>	Depends on which part of MMOS/2 you are talking about.
<Drifter_>	all of it :)
<b_wardell>	We would pull a number of components out of the client such as OpenDoc (OpenDOC MMOS/2 components are a source of many of the instability in MMOS/2)
<TheSeer>	b_wardell: try to play an mpeg-movie..
<Isxios>	MMOS2 needs to be replaced. All of it.
<Nenad>	b_wardell: you created OD for NT, too, so NT is also well designed? :)
<b_wardell>	The product on NT does not do the same things it does on OS/2.
<b_wardell>	And it takes a LOT more time to do little things on NT.
<Isxios>	So,
<TheSeer>	that's why Windowblinds is out for NT ? *g*
<Isxios>	OD on NT sits on top of Explorer, rather than integrating with it?
<b_wardell>	exactly, a progarm like WindowBlinds would be MUCH easier to create on OS/2 than it is on Windows.
<^Piggy^>	b_wardell: So how far are the negotiations with IBM? (On a scale of 1 to 10)
<sehh>	hmm
<dink>	theseer: because theres more money to be made on nt, common sense?
<b_wardell>	I'll let Tim answer that since he's from IBM.
<Nenad>	b_wardell: WarpBlinds would be welcomed in OS/2 comunity :)
<Tim-IBM>	Thanks, Brad.
<Drifter_>	oh.... Tim! time to wake up
<JE_Hoover>	b_wardell WindowsBlinds ;)
<dink>	b_wardell: if its easier to create, then where is the os/2 version?
<TheSeer>	b_wardell: so.. since it's easier to make in os/2 you created it for NT to show the crowd you guys can code ? *g*
<Tim-IBM>	First of all, both Brad and I are understandably a bit limited yet in what we can say.
<b_wardell>	Because it wouldn't be profitable to do it on OS/2. There's not enough market for pure eyecandy software like that on OS/2.
<Tim-IBM>	However, I'm (as they say) "cautiously optimistic." Stardock has made a very attractive
<Abraxas>	Sorry .... but I (and a host of others) would like to hear what Brad and Tim have to say .... we'll be Moderated for a short period
<Tim-IBM>	proposal, and we'd very much like to do it. We'll try to get both sides to meet together in the middle.
<b_wardell>	The challenge is, of course, that the immense size of IBM makes such agreements very time consuming to move forward sometimes.
<Tim-IBM>	What I can say is that, whatever we do, we'll protect the interests of our customers.
<Tim-IBM>	Which means here, quite simply, that if you get a subscription on OS/2 Warp (including IBM Software Choice) then we expect it'll be honored.
<Longstaff>	Tim-IBM - that's very much in the ibm tradition, is it not?
<Tim-IBM>	Yes, Longstaff. And both Stardock and IBM agree that that tradition should be honored.
<b_wardell>	Just think of the implications though of what that means. It creates some great opportunities but also some significant complexity to such an agreement.
<Tim-IBM>	Yes, and that's a bit of what we're wrestling with, although I must say Brad's come up with an elegant solution.
<b_wardell>	I think we can move back to open floor now.
<b_wardell>	If you guys don't mind.
<maximum>	If you are talking about forming an organization, then why not do it and let it do the negotiation with IBM?
<VMan>	Brad, about your comment on windowblinds/2. With what has been achieved with Stylist/2 (Smart Windows) and the last CandyBarZ, would you say that a WarpBlinds movement has future?
<Tim-IBM>	Maximum: Speaking (unofficially) for IBM, I don't think we could tolerate that -- for legal reasons, among others.
<b_wardell>	Well, with regards to an organization, who would run this organization? Adn why would IBM deal with one? IBM wants to deal with an established OS/2 vendor - a commercial vendor.
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: it would be nice if IBM could deside if they want to support OS/2 or just stopp all os/2 development, everything in between is verry bad .-(
<TheSeer>	b_wardell: let's talk about the time-schedule.. *if* stardock will do a client.. in what time ? warp 4 is not y2k-ready and i doubt you'll manage to have a product in less then 6 month..
<Isxios>	IBM may value the customer, ut IBM's view of a customer seems limited to large corporations. Where do I fit into IBM's commitment to the customer
<_jm>	The problem with os/2 today is drivers for new hardware. Talk of a new client is nice, but is IBM going to create drivers for new hardware--or is stardock going to do this.
<Ltning>	b_wardell: Question: If it is to be IBM that will do fixpaks and development of the base os and its components, what exactly is it then StarDock will do? I.e. the things that has to be done for OS/2 to be a good client, is things that IBM then would have to do.
<b_wardell>	VMan: We wouldn't do a WarpBlinds type product because it wouldn't be profitable to do it.
<Ltning>	Will IBM commit themselves to those tasks?
<maximum>	Tim-IBM: You cannot tolerate negotiating with a legal organization?
<sehh>	from what we can see, ibm's management is not really interested in os/2...
<sehh>	well they know that NT has lots more money to offer..i don't blame them..
<b_wardell>	The first step would be to have an open beta program, we would have to create a new install program that worked with the existing hardware detection features of OS/2's SID install, we would then have to bring in the extra components we want to work on.
<Nenad>	the problem I see is the future, OS/2 is quite "current" today but that is mostly because it was ahead of it's time few years ago, I'm afraid that no significant development efforts are being made in IBM to improve and make it technology leader again... like no 64-bit version, no WPS improvements, no directory service on server, no integration... will it be "current" in two years?
<JE_Hoover>	Tim-IBM - I dont think that paying IBM $190 USD to report a critical bug that allows OS/2 to be remotely trapped in the TCPIP 4.1 4.21 stacks is reasonable - and I'm really annoyed that you suggested it.
<Tim-IBM>	TheSeer: The shipment schedule depends a lot on how quickly we (IBM) can review everything, so it's not necessarily all on Stardock's shoulders.
<b_wardell>
<Klaus>	Nenad: I agree to you
<Ltning>	Btw Brad.. Why are you running Windows w/mIRC?
<b_wardell>	What does a 64bit version buy you for a client?
<b_wardell>	Because I'm in NT.
<sehh>	Tim-IBM: are you serious? we would PAY to have a bug fixed? this is ridiculous
<jjurban>	What can WE do to help make Warp 5 client a reality?
<^Piggy^>	b_wardell: I think it was a message from you in Usenet where you mention incorporating "windowblinds technologies" into WinOS2. Do you have this intention. (it'd be rather nice to do it)
<Tim-IBM>	Maximum: IBM would not tolerate dealing with an unincorporated organization for these purposes, no. And there are sound legal reasons for that -- some beyond IBM's control.
<Projects>	b_wardell: can you stick to plain text por favor? I can't read that red on a black screen
<mandie>	jjurban: excellent question!
<b_wardell>	Yes, we would do a WindowBlinds for WinOS2 so that Windows programs running on OS/2 would appear to be like OS/2 programs. Just a visual change but important to corporate users who want a consistant user interface.
<b_wardell>	projects: sorry.
<maximum>	Tim-IBM: Who is talking about an unincorporated organization. Certainly Brad isn't suggesting that. I didn't suggest it at WarpStock98.
<Nenad>	b_wardell: new installaton program is a great idea!
<^Piggy^>	b_wardell: Great, WinOS2 is in need of a makeover. :)
<Tim-IBM>	Hoover: That's how it works, and that's reality. It's a commercially supported operating system at commercial rates under present circumstances.
<Projects>	b_wardell: np... I was pasting it to another window, but it's coming fast and furious :)
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: well.. i really don't care WHO.. i just have no idea HOW it should happen.. you can't "create" a client out of nothing..
<Tim-IBM>	Hoover: The support is unbelievably good from IBM, but it is paid support.
<Drifter_>	I would rather see attention on a better win32 support than it looking good
<Tim-IBM>	Hoover: And that is not at all uncommon in the industry.
<Ltning>	b_wardell: Don't you think it is a tad provoking to use mIRC when you are in this channel to talk about a future OS/2 client? Doesn't really show much commitment...
<VMan>	Drifter: I guess that should come with Odin or Everblue
<Tim-IBM>	Hoover: (Although what is uncommon is IBM's top quality support.)
<sehh>	TheSeer: warp5 client is already made and ready..
<TheSeer>	Drifter: odin is making good progress..
<TheSeer>	sehh: that's rumor..
<Pilot>	Tim-IBM: you mean no more free fixpacks or what?
<b_wardell>	There would be no Win32 support. One thing the OS/2 community needs to do is begin supporting itself. Linux has not suffered from not having Win32 support, it's a thriving -- growing community. It's that kind of community that OS/2 needs to thrive.
<jjurban>	I'm an OS/2 developer. My main problem surviving is the perception that OS/2 is dead. A Warp 5 client would enable me to stay in business. I will do ANYTHING to help a new client come to be.
<Isxios>	He can use whatever the hell he chooses to use. Stop nitpicking and just listen and ask pertinent questions
<JE_Hoover>	Tim-IBM - should we send IBM a bill for our 3 programmers time over 2 days to detect the error and save IBM from being sued by any of your bank clients
<Frogger>	Ltning: OS wars are boring. Forget about it and concentrate on the future.
<Tim-IBM>	Maximum: Stardock has laid a proposal in front of IBM. I'm not implying that other proposals wouldn't be considered. However, I must say that Stardock's is well crafted.
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: can you agree to Sehh's point? (warp5 client is already made and ready..) ??
<Ltning>	Frogger: Yes sir. :)
<VMan>	I would start learning C asap, even though I concluded C is primitve ^_^
<b_wardell>	Ltning: OS/2 users have to move beyond superficial useless gestures. Deeds are what matter. Stardock is a commercial corporation it writes software for money. And you can bet that if we publish the next OS/2 client it will be a success because we'd make it our business (as opposed to hobby) to make it successful.
<Abraxas>	FWIW, VOICE is currently working on a project that would provide support for OS/2 (curent and future versions) to EVERYONE ... regardless of "number of seats/licenses" that we hope will be all-inclusive ... better than IBM's own APAR reporting system, .... a sear4chable database of problems/fixes culled from USENET, Mailing Lists and one-on-one Q&A with recognized OS/2 "Experts"
<Ltning>	b_wardell: I understand your business nees fully. My question, as stated above, is if IBM will be willing to do what THEY have to do to make the changes necessary for OS/2 to be a viable end-user client?
<VMan>	Brad: what can you say of the so-talked-about Warp2000.com?
<mandie>	abraxas: if Stardock's deal goes through, maybe we can get Brad involved..and maybe even Mr. Tim :)
<Tim-IBM>	Hoover: Seriously, I would recommend you evaluate that time, find out how much it costs, and evaluate whether paid IBM support is worth it.
<_jm>	I support an os/2 network of machines. My biggest prob. is the perception IBM is kiling os/2. A new client would help, but support of a dell pc (with drivers that run the hardware) would go a long way.
<Ltning>	b_wardell: My point is that adding features from your products is not enough, some serious (and not-so-serious) changes to the base OS and multimedia subsystem also has to be made.
<sehh>	Abraxas: do we have to be members of voice to access that database?
<b_wardell>	If people take a fresh look around at the OS/2 community, they'll see that it really needs to start being more self sufficient. Instead of wondering "when is IBM going to do this" or "when is Stardock going to do that" we'll work to transform it to be more like Linux where the users do for thsmevles. That will be a major goal of ours, to create an infrastructure where users can more eaisly help each other and developers can work together. We
<b_wardell>	accessible.
<Frogger>	Brad: Is GalCiv going to be ported to Linux?
<mandie>	sehh: NO, we're here to assist the OS/2 community
<Tim-IBM>	Hoover: We must have a sustainable business case for OS/2 Warp. We will support you at reasonable rates.
<Projects>	sehh: no :)
<Isxios>	Does Stardock intend to take the WPS under their wing? Improve and support it while IBM handles the rest?
<JE_Hoover>	tim-ibm - thats ±2400 per programmer x 3 programmers x 2 days for detecting an error in OS/2 and having to spend hours and hours communicating with IBM
<Abraxas>	sehh NO .... absolyely NOT
<b_wardell>	Frogger: Maybe eventually, GalCiv for Linux kind of died, the company doing it had some setbacks.
<sehh>	k
<JE_Hoover>	Tim-IBM if you want to charge for reporting bugs - maybe you should PAY for detecting them
<Longstaff>	sehh - the database interface will be contained in a java applet operating over public www
<sehh>	JAVA??? oh my god..
<Pilot>	b_wardell: how we can be self sufficient with a proprietary OS??? That's ridiculous...
<b_wardell>	Isxios: It's hard to say, we won't have source code to OS/2.
<sehh>	that would mean half the comm/2's out there would crash!!
<sehh>	also that would mean slow access!!
<b_wardell>	Pilot: Why?
<Ltning>	b_wardell: Well that fresh look won't help much - some things in OS/2 can only be fixed by IBM and IBM alone. Other things by StarDock. Everything else I agree the community should be able to take care of on it's own - and I appreciate your eager to make that happen.
<sehh>	please don't use java..
<sehh>	its just too slow and uses too much memory..
<Drifter_>	b_wardell: Im glad to hear you want to make it a success, but if you package a new client with Stardock products bundled, then you and IBM will be potentialy hurting small software companies with competing applications or utilities.
<_jm>	How can I continue to use /2 when it won't run most new hardware? This isn't a new client we need; we need support from ibm
<PaperMach>	David loves Warp
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: the problem my bosses think that way: IBM-OS/2 Client -> no IBM-OS/2 Server and no IBM-Hardware (->MS-Soft and Compaq hardware) so a stardock Client is nice for me home user, but no good for big business...
<Abraxas>	sehh ... not if they are correctly configured
<b_wardell>	Ltning: Device drivers could come from the OS/2 community. Why does everyone always wait for IBm to do device drivers?
<sehh>	java is nice if you are the programmer, but if you are the user of a java program it is the worst thing..
<JE_Hoover>	Tim-IBM - we detected probably the most important bug in os/2 tcpip and you have the audiacity to tell me that I should be thankful that IBM tried to charge me
<Pilot>	b_wardell: WPS is dead IBM says, how anyone can program for PM/WPS then?
<Tim-IBM>	Drifter: Stardock's plan does not threaten third party vendors -- it's very sensitive to their needs.
<Ltning>	b_wardell: Well to make good multimedia drivers and applications we REALLY need a VERY MUCH updated multimedia subsystem - which is the area where OS/2 is lagging behind the most at present.
<sehh>	Tim-IBM: if ibm's management is full of people like you, i believe that YOU are the reason that OS/2 is nearly dead right now
<Isxios>	b_wardell: Would Stardock provide hardware support that IBM refused to do?
<b_wardell>	Pilot: On Linux then, EVERYTHING is dead.
<jjurban>	What happened to the O-O driver model?
<Klaus>	b_wardell: if the IBM-Comunity is doing the devicedrivers and Win32, we could do the os too (or switch to linux ,-)
<Tim-IBM>	Klaus: The Stardock plan is sensitive to this concern and addresses it well, in my personal opinion.
<mandie>	I think it's because of IBM'ers like Tim that OS/2 lives on
<b_wardell>	The OS/2 community could do device drivers themselves. The BeOS community (and BeOS is quite proprietary) has been cranking out device drivers.
<Pilot>	b_wardell: will you have access to WPS sources?
<Pilot>	b_wardell: for fixing and developing it?
*	Projects agrees with mandie
<Frogger>	Will there be hardware accerlated OpenGL drivers?
<JE_Hoover>	mandie - its not ... - Tim should not say that we should PAY to report a BUG
<sehh>	stardock with its release of OD has been marked as a company that makes 'winblouz-like' programs... since they are slow and need lots of memory.. lets how that this will not happen if they release warp5 client..
<jjurban>	jjurban agrees with mandie - and I'm one of IBM's biggest critics!
<b_wardell>	Pilot: We weren't planning on it, but who knows, depends on IBM. It would be nice to have that available. WPS development is difficult to do.
<Ltning>	b_wardell: I'm NOT only talking about device drivers! I DO agree that this can be done. But still there are MAJOR parts of the base os that you CAN NOT expect freelance developers to come around without help from IBM.
<dink>	sehh: not to mention the BUGS (not the game) they refuse to fix
<Abraxas>	mandie you are 100% correct ... Tim and quite a few other IBMers who are personally committed to OS/2
<_jm>	I buy software; I can't write it. I need to KNOW when that new ide disk comes out I can get drivers for it...
<Tim-IBM>	Hoover: I'm telling you we're grateful, and we appreciate it. I'm also telling you that you should raise the issue of reimbursement with the Support Center. They may be able to help.
<mandie>	JE_Hoover: there are those of us that WILL pay to report a but as long as it means a new client
<mandie>	but=bug
<sehh>	mandie: yeah? i have never seen a company who asks for its clients to pay for a bug to be fixed!! that sounds more like micro$oft...
<b_wardell>	sehh: I occasionally see people say this and yet Object Desktop wins best product of its kind every year on OS/2 e-Zine. OS/2 users in general clearly like Object Desktop. Can you name any non IBM products that have outsold Object Desktop?
<Tim-IBM>	IBM's Device Driver Kit for OS/2 Warp is available free of charge online TODAY.
<Ltning>	mandie: Problem is we never know if it'll result in a new client. :(
<sehh>	weardell: no idea. i don't use any commercial products like that..
<b_wardell>	I'd be willign to bet real money that no OS/2 product outside IBM has outsold Object Desktop 2.0 in 1998 for instance. People obviously like it.
<Smeddles>	i understand the idea of paid support - but if the problem turns out to be a bug in the software the fee should be refunded
<Galileo>	what about Frogger question, Will there be hardware accerlated OpenGL drivers?
<sehh>	how abour DVD support?
<Smeddles>	best hope of hardware opengl is Scitech
<Pilot>	b_wardell: btw, why OD doesn't work with Aurora?
<sehh>	or actual REAL multimedia support??
<jjurban>	I like OD, but I'm stil on 1.5
<Isxios>	OD2 is great, quick, and without a doubt, the best thing I have added to OS/2 in a long time
*	golan has returned. .gz.
<b_wardell>	OD works with Aurora. We have it on there.
<golan>	b_wardell:So what we need is a common place where we can learn to code eficiently for OS/2. A place where we could learn from others, share thoughts, problems, whatever and end to something tangible, isn't it?
*	madodel has OD 2.0 on Aurora and WSe-b
<Nenad>	b_wardell: I have no use for 64-bit OS/2 _now_, but other companies are working on their OSes to support the new technology, and IBM said "if customers need it, we'll do it", which one can read as "only if we must" :(
<Ltning>	b_wardell: It breaks things like the WPS restart.
<b_wardell>	golan: EXACTLY.
<madodel>	get OD 2 FP1
<Ltning>	b_wardell: And it provokes an attempted WPS restart if you close and re-open the drives folder in Object Browser.
<Tim-IBM>	Smeddles: That is the policy that I'm aware of, but it must be resolved with the Support Center. Only the folks charging can issue reimbursements.
<b_wardell>	Fkxit #1 for OD address that.
<Nenad>	b_wardell: StarOffice might have outsold OD in 1998 :)
<Ltning>	->resulting in a non-recoverable hang.
<Pilot>	b_wardell: hmm, not here...
<Pilot>	madodel: you can click on a folder and it opens???
<Ltning>	b_wardell: no it does not.
<Projects>	may I remind people that this isn't a "complain about OD" session...
<Tim-IBM>	Golan: Yes, an open developer community would be very valuable.
<mandie>	nenad: before or after they offered it free?
<Nenad>	AFAIK, IBM refunds you if it turns out to be a bug
<Ltning>	b_wardell: I DO have that fixkit installed, and I still can't restart my WPS, e.g. when updating feature install (which requires a WPS restart)
<madodel0>	Pilot: sure can. I just installed SO5.1 with Nenad's help :-)
<madodel0>	That's on WSe-b
<Nenad>	mandie: even before, v4 is very popular in Germany
<b_wardell>	Ltning: I dunno, you should post on our news group then.
<madodel0>	with OD 2.0 installed
<Ltning>	b_wardell: I did a few days ago actually.
<Ltning>	Detailed description.
<jjurban>	Once more, Tim or Brad, what can WE do to help make Warp5 client a reality?
<Ltning>	b_wardell: and switching of virtual desktop on window activation is too slow :(
<WalterOS2>	b_wardell: Remove the Task Manager, and you should be able to restart the WPS.
<Ltning>	jjurban: I hang on to that question :)
<Galileo>	...if anyone is going to build a OS/2 warp client, please check the Netlabs OS/2 wishlist...thats what the OS/2 users wants.
<Galileo>	http://www.netlabs.org/wishlist/index.html
<b_wardell>	Well for one thing, you can spread the word about OS/2 users needing to be more self sufficient. Look at this very channel all the people waiting for IBM to do all this stuff for them. (accelerated video drivers, DVD, etc. Linux guys do this themselves, they don't have a company to complain to).
<Nenad>	open comunity is about to give OS/2 users access to X programs from PM soon, it appears, and maybe even Win32 down on the road :)
<b_wardell>	OS/2 only really has a chance if the OS/2 community is willing to work on things themselves.
<b_wardell>	The OS/2 device driver development tools are already available for free for instance.
<Fuzy|ogic>	I want to know if the bundled development software will compile in both 32 and 16 bit.. If so, then everyone will potentially be able to develop anything given the right knowledge..
<Tim-IBM>	JJurban: I suggest a couple things: (1) Stay tuned in. (2) Consider helping out as part of a developer community, whether it's helping out with beta testing, writing new device drivers, or otherwise contributing to the common good (e.g. Linux)
<b_wardell>	Our job will be to make sure these tools are more readily available, easier to use, and that people can more easily get together and work together.
<jjurban>	what happened to the O-O device driver model?
<mandie>	Brad: I think there are alot of self-sufficient OS/2 users..atleast those that are qualified to do so...but they sort of lose incentive when it's been said time after time that OS/2 is dead
<sehh>	b_wardell: i used OD2 for some time and it crashed after i left my machine running for more than 3-4 days.. have these problems been fixed?
<Ltning>	OS/2's problem is that it appears to users as an alternative to windows - not linux.
<dink>	sehh: i asked him that question earlier via msg, and he threatened to ban me
<VMan>	Well, lets change that, Ltning
<Nenad>	b_wardell: you should make sure that FixPaks are delivered in human-installable format, one that doesn't requres you to read 100K readme file, meaning: unzip and type install :)
<Ltning>	VMan: Not easy, since most people remember the windows<->os2 battle
<sehh>	dink: oh..
<Tim-IBM>	I have to agree with Brad on this. If you bought IBM's OS/2 1.0 you got *most* of the remaining OS/2 versions at no charge. That's not exactly a recipe for "return on investment." :-)
<TheSeer>	b_wardell: i agree to the the point os/2-users need to help themselves.. but HOW ? We don't have access to the "bugs" in the wps/ mmos/2 and stuff..
<Projects>	Nenad: there's a readme in the fixpacks? :)
<jjurban>	I'm an application developer. I know nothing about drivers 'n stuff, but I'll try my best to learn. I'll also help test, debug and (yuck), even document.
<Nenad>	Projects: yes, 3 or 4 readme's :)
<b_wardell>	TheSeer: It is up to us (Stardock/IBM) to make it easier to work on this sort of stuff.
<Projects>	Nenad: oh :) I usually just type "install" :-)
<JimLarson>	One would think most of the bugs in a 10 year old OS would be fixed by now.
<Tim-IBM>	IBM simply can't be doing everything in the world, and doing it all for free. Third parties, freeware, shareware, community-based development and testing -- it'll all have to play a part.
*	Projects is always open to beta testing... half my software is alpha/beta software...
<TheSeer>	b_wardell: hmm.. i know i can debug a code in linux since i have the source.. but how should that be possible in MMOS/2 for example ? the only alternative will be a rewrite..
<Fuzy|ogic>	I want to know if the bundled development software will compile in both 32 and 16 bit..
<b_wardell>	That's what Stardock will do with much of the revenue on sucha client, help create an infrastructure.
<Ltning>	b_wardell: so what will change if Stardock gets this agreement with IBM? Will IBM and Stardock focus more on those things that end-users actually want fixed?
<Ltning>	That is, things that ease further developmend of/by the community?
*	Pilot will never dare to install a freebee written driver on his OS/2 system
<b_wardell>	TheSeer: Which part of the OS/2 source do you need? Device driver toolskits include lots of source.
<b_wardell>	OpenSource is more marketing than reality.
<TheSeer>	i don't ask for source..
<b_wardell>	You can create file systems, drivers, shell extensions, etc. for OS/2.
<Ltning>	WPS/PM sourcecode would be VERY handy - since that's where most bugs are, and most potential in enhanchements.
<Abraxas>	Tim-IBM Exactly ..... If we, the "USERS" want a more feature packed OS ..... we can do it ....
<b_wardell>	You don't need the source code to the OS/2 kernal.
<TheSeer>	i just dunno how to fix the problems in a peace of software i don't have access to..
<Klaus>	b_wardell: we need mmOS/2 Sources!
<Ltning>	And afaik - WPS is IBM-only copyright..
<Klaus>	b_wardell: and WPS Sources...
<b_wardell>	Klaus: I'd agree with that actually.
<sehh>	yeah.. the WPS and MMOS2 are the most buggy parts in OS/2
<b_wardell>	WPS source would be useful though.
<`\\\arvin>	Hello all
<Klaus>	b_wardell: these 2 parts are the most buggy ones!
<Nenad>	some good things happened lately, like Daniela's IDE drivers, much better than those from IBM, supporting ATA-66 and load of chipsets (VIA, Ali, SiS...)
<Ltning>	Yes definitely
<sehh>	actualy MMOS2/multimedia support is nearly non-existant!
<Galileo>	..We need Quicktime 4 for OS/2 !!!
<Ltning>	the kernel and base os is robust enough.
<Ltning>	Galileo: so make someone make it.
<WarpHoss>	Brad & Tim: Hire Lee Iococca, market it properly w/out the nuns and everything else will fall into place. ;-)
<`\\\arvin>	g'day Brad
<Klaus>	b_wardell: and IBM seems to have stopped development of both so why dont release the sources
<sehh>	Nenad: i had data corruption with that driver
<golan>	well, time to go to bed. I'll read the rest from the logs tomorrow. Hope this helps reaching a solution or making people more involved in OS/2 developing. :) See you
<Ltning>	But first, make IBM make mmos2 a useable platform for multimedia
<sehh>	Nenad: also 4 other people had corruption too
<Fuzy|ogic>	b_wardell: Can we talk about the development software included or is it "classified"
<JimLarson>	Bring back Dennis Leary.
<Ltning>	THEN we can start developing SERIOUS mm applications.
<sehh>	Nenad: that driver is not to be trusted
<Tim-IBM>	Abraxas: And IBM will play it's part, and hopefully have a partner like Stardock -- but even that's not enough. Everyone has to pitch in.
<Galileo>	..apple doesnt want to give me the source code.
<sehh>	Nenad: also the author is not very helpful
<Frogger>	Brad: Can we safely conclude that *if* a Warp 5 client becomes a reality, that IBM will be providing the Fortune 500 support and Stardock will provide the "kitchentop" (man, I hated that denigration) support?
<Abraxas>	Nenad daniella's IDE drivers are a classic example of what an independent developer can do
<Nenad>	sehh: it worked great here
<TheSeer>	b_wardell: i don't ask IBM to fix the bugs though.. i just dunno HOW to help if only IBM is allowed to touch the code ;)
<b_wardell>	Well releasing source code can be tricky, it depends on who owns what. Microsoft owns chunks of OS/2, even MicroGrafix owns chunks of OS/2.
<Abraxas>	Tim-IBM I agree 100% ..... EVERYONE has to take a role in supporting/enhancing OS/2
<Nenad>	isn't micrografx dead?
<Klaus>	TheSeer: right!
<b_wardell>	Fuzy: When things progress further, I'll give more specifics on what we'd do. Let's just say, as Tim said, it's pretty cool.
<sehh>	Why was JFS made? since its slower than HPFS386 and also its not BOOTABLE?
*	Isxios calls for a moment of silence for Cyrix
<sehh>	the only good things in JFS is the last harddrive/file support
<Abraxas>	Tim-IBM If we want it badly enough ... we'll take the steps necessary to have it :-)
<Tim-IBM>	Frogger: We have to be very careful on particulars right now, but you're very close to the mark. To which I'd add that Stardock would turn into one of those "Fortune 500."
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: but for Supporting OS/2 it would be nice to get some code from IBM to fix it;-)
<Fuzy|ogic>	Will Stardock lobby to get other companies to develop OS/2 versions of their apps? i.e. Adobe Acrobat?
*	Projects agress with Abraxas :)
<Frogger>	Tim-IBM: Wow!
<`\\\arvin>	Hello tom :)
<b_wardell>	Fuzy: Stardock will of course do what is in its best interests. And if we are publishing the OS/2 client, then you can imagine what that would include. ;)
<mandie>	Fuzy: did you check out the new Adobe Acrobat in Java?
<Tim-IBM>	Fuzy: Adobe just released a Java beta of Acrobat reader, by the way.
<Projects>	Is Stardock hiring? :)
<Nenad>	Acrobat in Java?! geez, now that would be slow!
<b_wardell>	;)
<_Sid_C>	hi
<Fuzy|ogic>	mandie: No, I like the idea of java, but many Java apps seem to fall short for now..
<^Piggy^>	Yeah, will there be a feeling that OS/2 is a supported product and stop scaring off developers? Will there be advertising?
<b_wardell>	Actually, if we do get the OS/2 client moving, we will need to hire a graet deal more OS/2 users.
<mandie>	Nenad: check out the preview Java 1.1.8..it's fast :)
<Isxios>	I am really starting to hate even the mention of Java
<tom>	dhi
<Projects>	users? Not programmers?
<b_wardell>	Well first of all, much of OS/2's problems haven't been due to lack of advertising but a hostile press.
<_Sid_C>	Stardock rulez!
<Frogger>	brad: Hire a bunch more OS/2 users. hehe.
<sehh>	JAVA is such shit..
<sehh>	its slow
<b_wardell>	You can be assured that a Stardock client would get a LOT of media coverage.
<sehh>	takes so much memory
<sehh>	and has no real use..
<VMan>	The problem of Jave is people do it with Visual (ha!) J ++(ha!)
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: a java acrobat is a nice thing, but Java and Netscape are the only two things that crash my system permanently ,-(
<^Piggy^>	OK.
<sehh>	native apps are 1000 times faster..
<sehh>	and use 10000 times less memory
<Tim-IBM>	On a separate subject... barring any unforeseen schedule changes, EVERYONE mark your calendar for a July 14th major browser-related announcement.
<sehh>	why would anyone want to program in java?
<Nenad>	mandie: still, takes too much RAM to be usefull.... Swing demo managed to allocate 80MBs :(
<b_wardell>	I think some OS/2 users have complained that Stardock is too mcuh like Microsoft in the way it "hypes" things (I don't agree with that mind you) but I think in this case our abilty to get media coverage would be to OS/2 advantage.
<Fuzy|ogic>	IBM is doing great things with Java.. I think it is IBM that will make it worth it.
<`\\\arvin>	b_wardell: I always wanted to know what stardock's position was on the client. Does stardock have a plan to release the client?
<Ltning>	b_wardell: well you haven't really addressed my question yet, which I think is rather important, considering we probably won't be able to touch the sourcecode of the OS itself..
<mandie>	sehh: write once..run anywhere :)
<Tim-IBM>	And that's all I'm going to say about that. :-)
<Isxios>	I have to say that the ZD writers are certainly quick to call OS/2 a technical marvel now that they helped to dig its grave. Too bad OS/2 refuses to jump into it.
<sehh>	mandie: at what COST?
*	Abraxas isn't "well versed" on the "particulars" ... but has a working knowledge of how this licensing deal would work ... and believe me .... it's going to take a LOT of commitment on a great many OS/2 users to make this work
*	mandie has marked her calendar!
<sehh>	mandie: java apps are so slow, and use huge ammounts of memory..
<sehh>	mandie: you would use an email client that uses 25 megs of ram? (j street)
<sehh>	thats RIDICULOUS
<Nenad>	IBM is very slow even when someone wants to help them, can StarDock influence that as a mediator?
<Isxios>	Re
<_Sid_C>	Mr. Wardell, For a long time, I hoped Stardock would do something with OS/2 (Warp). Is it beyond you, to actually get at the core of OS/2, and make some system level improvements/enhancements?
<b_wardell>	\\\arvin: Yes we have a plan. ;)
<Nenad>	Tim-IBM: just one question, is it any faster? :)
<Isxios>	brad: at least to MMOS2 or the WPS
*	Projects loves it when a plan comes together :)
<`\\\arvin>	b_wardell: Sounds cool :) How close is this to being realized? Is it a possibility or in the works at the moment?
<jjurban>	I have a feeling that if IBM announced a new Warp Client, the press would be very much different than in the past. Many of the pressies realize they made a dreadful mistake, but would like a face-saving way out. Warp 5 would get GOOD PRESS, I bet.
<`\\\arvin>	Plans are good, yep :)
<b_wardell>	Well, in the near term it would be difficult. Stardock isnt' capable of doing that kind of thing now. But after a successful Aurora based client launch, who knows. Trust takes time to build and while IBM trusts us a great deal already, giving us the soruce code and letting us loose with it is taking a huge step.
<_Sid_C>	b_wardell, how good are the communication channels between Stardock and IBM?
<Abraxas>	Nenad If the support mechanism that we (VOICE) has in mind WORKS as designed ..... IBM won't have to play a major role in the support of OS/2
<Tim-IBM>	Nenad: IBM does have to be a bit cautious for certain things, and if you've followed the trial coverage you might see a few examples why.
<b_wardell>	Sid_C: Good enough that Tim from IBM and I are both co-chairing this speak-up. ;)
<Tim-IBM>	Nenad: You won't get anything more from me. :-)
<_Sid_C>	;-)
<Fuzy|ogic>	If a new Warp client came out at this time in PC history WITH development software... Wow.
<`\\\arvin>	Hehehe
<Isxios>	I have faith in Stardock
<^Piggy^>	b_wardell: Ok... a big IF question. If negotiations were completed, how long would it take for the new cient to be available?
<b_wardell>	A Warpclient from us would come with development tools for C and JAVA in the box.
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: by the way: you released a new Warp-Server and i didn't see ANYTHING in the Press or on TV don't you want to sell your software? MAYBEE you should do some pr!!
<b_wardell>	I'd say about 2 months after the signed deal we would have an open beta.
<Frogger>	Tim-IBM: An off-the-wall question: is there any consideration within IBM for porting the WPS to Linux? Man, that would be truly excellent.
<`\\\arvin>	Stardock's been around for os/2 for the long haul. Damned nice to see they're still kickin in
<Tim-IBM>	Sid: At least parts of IBM now know where Livonia is. :-)
<b_wardell>	Then 6 months after that a release.
<b_wardell>	thanks.
<`\\\arvin>	:)
<Abraxas>	b_wardell "IF" you do a Warp Client .... would it include LVM, JFS and SMP????
<DA_MAN>	heck..i'l even voluntier to update the old teamos/2 warpPharmy and make it current
<b_wardell>	Frogger: The problem is, and we've looked at WPS on Linux, is that Linux has no object model. You'd have to make SOM first.
*	Projects directs IBM to the table... "Sign here:_________________________"
<_jm>	Tim-IBM: he's right. there has been silence over the aurora release. why is that?
<Pilot>	Tim-IBM: good point -- IBM Russia does not have A SINGLE LINE about Aurora at their web site!!!
<b_wardell>	Abraxas: Yes.
<mandie>	<--even knows where Livonia is ;)
<Tim-IBM>	Klaus: Actually there was some modest mainstream press coverage. CNN included.
<b_wardell>	Mandie better know! ;)
<TheSeer>	b_wardell: you have CORBA in GNOME..
<mandie>	:)
<_Sid_C>	b_wardell, (Off Topic?): OS/2 could really use a nice mouse control panel, to adjust things like velocity, acceleration, etc, like Logitech's. Is there a reason why this hasen't been done yet?
<Abraxas>	DA_MAN VOICE is doing just that NOW ..... Join the mailing list .... warpdoctor@os2voice.org
<Tim-IBM>	There are many, many software releases CNN doesn't cover.
<Frogger>	Brad: yep. :-)) SOM/DSOM and WPS on Linux. Wouldn't that be excellent?
<b_wardell>	TheSeer: But it's still very...flakey.
<Pilot>	Tim-IBM: I'm not talking about CNN, I'm asking about IBM :(((
<b_wardell>	Sid_C: Yes, because no one has written it. ;)
<TheSeer>	TheSeer: can you tell me where to BUY a copy of WSeb ? in germay ?? NOONE has it.. :-/
<DA_MAN>	Tim-ibm: what is ibm's stance on relesing an updated warp4 cleint..
<_Sid_C>	I could think of many things OS/2 could use. I have a lot of ideas; practical ones too. ;-)
<Tim-IBM>	Frogger: Not so off the wall, but no, I don't think there are any plans at this stage for that.
*	`\\\arvin likes those Vachon Flaky cakes
<`\\\arvin>	MMM :P
<TheSeer>	b_wardell: sure.. but that won't make any influence on the wps anyway..
<DA_MAN>	tim-ibm:I mean .it shoudlnt be to dificult to slap together a an instalable CD --with OS/2 at the latest FP version or is it?
<`\\\arvin>	biab ;)
<b_wardell>	What OS/2 needs more than anything is a feeling of momentum. The difference between Linux and OS/2 is largely one of momentum. People feel like LInux is moving forward where OS/2 is in decline. I think together we can change this feeling.
<TheSeer>	b_wardell: ok.. i know.. but you might power the corba-project by that ;)
<Projects>	Vachon Flaky cakes... now there's a blast from the past :)
*	_jm read over the recent new server showdowns with novell/nt/unix, not ibm in there at all. they didn't even place any adds I could find in the trades. This helps not at all.
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: I'm thinking about TV-Spots or something like that, IBM told us, that Warp-Server is one of their 4 Strategic platforms, you (IBM) should spend some money to tell that to your customers
<b_wardell>	The other problem with Linux is revenue. I haven't found a way that commercial companies can easily make money on Linux.
<mandie>	b_wardell: with everyone into "choice", this is good timing
<_Sid_C>	b_wardell: Is too hard to write a mouse control panel?
*	Drifter_ has returned. .gz.
<mandie>	or "could be" good timing :)
<^Piggy^>	b_wardell: Are there any WPS enhancements being debated on, like windowsblinds in WinOS2? Like a little makeover or is that territory you guys aren't messing with?
<Isxios>	_Sid_C: write it yourself
<Fuzy|ogic>	IBM doesn't advertise specifics, when was the last time you saw an AS/400 commercial?
<`\\\arvin>	With linux being all GPL i don't see how they can much much if not any money off of apps
<b_wardell>	Sid_C: Probably not hard but there's no money to be made at it.
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: im germany everyone not actually useing os/2 thinks: OS/2 ? Oh. that the os ibm killed years ago, right? "
<Pilot>	Tim-IBM: with such an attitude who will beleive in any IBM support for OS/2?..
<`\\\arvin>	er make much, if not any .. sorry
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: and you tell me IBM sees this as a strategic product t?? strange way to show that..
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: even on your web-page in germany (the biggest OS/2 customer) or on IBM.com there's no direct link to WarpServer
<Tim-IBM>	DA_MAN: IBM, at least by itself, has no plans for a Warp client release in 1999, so far as I'm aware. Updates, though -- plenty.
<b_wardell>	Piggy: WindowBLinds for WinOS2 would be bundled with such a client. We want to eliminate the dual GUI of OS/2 - (WinOS2 and OS/2 GUIs) there'd be only 1 GUI - the OS/2 one. Windows programs would look and feel like OS/2 programs.
<Galileo>	WE NEED MARKETING !!!
<_Sid_C>	I don't think Linux will be main stream enough to give MS any competition; ergo we need OS/2.
<jjurban>	IMPORTANT: Will the client, if it happens, still be an IBM product, or Stardock, or both?
*	madodel0 sees a lot netfinity server commercials advertising NT
<Klaus>	Galileo: right!
<b_wardell>	It would be both.
<Fuzy|ogic>	If the new client comes with C development tools, I think we can kill Winos2 after a while. It's only useful if there isn't a Warp version of something. Now we need updated PM/WPS programming books..
<^Piggy^>	b_wardell: I ment a little updating of the look of the WPS.
<b_wardell>	Supported by IBM, published by Stardock.
<_Sid_C>	Linux is not intuitive enough for the typical home user.
<Galileo>	any os crap can get to the top with good marketing ... I got an example.
<Ltning>	b_wardell: what about the win95 emulator/whatever that we KNOW that IBM has developed, but never released?
<Tim-IBM>	Klaus: It is INCREDIBLY uncommon that IBM advertises a specific product on television -- and OS/2 Warp, at least throughout history, has had more than its fair share.
<tom>	we need realaudio/2
<Isxios>	Linux needs to be simplified. None of the average Win users is ever going to switch to Linux when it is so hard to configure and install sometimes
<Frogger>	Would there be any support for Win98 apps?
<sehh>	ibm has already killed os/2, os/2 is still alive becauseo of some big corporations.. thats why this ibm guy here has such a bad attitude against os/2..
<scoff>	b_wardell: I like the uniting of the UI idea
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: i've seen advertises for IBM-WindowsNT solutions :-((((((((((((
<Tim-IBM>	Klaus: But this is incredibly academic. IBM cannot make OS/2 Warp succeed on its own. (Otherwise it would have happened already.) YOU have to help.
<jjurban>	Heck, I remember the "OS/2 Fiesta Bowl!"
<mandie>	Fuzy: I don't think the idea is to kill windoze in os/2...there are those that NEED to run windoze apps, and if they are able to do just that under OS/2 then they don't NEED windoze
<Tim-IBM>	Like I said, IBM will do plenty, but it can't do it all.
<Galileo>	..Im sick of this, Im going to buy IBM, how much it cost?
<b_wardell>	Piggy: That's a tough call. I'd like to, but it's been difficult to find people who know OS/2 well enough. I don't know any workplace shell coding myself for instance. One reason why OD fixkits don't flow out like they used to is purely in the difficulty of getting knowledgable OS/2 developers on-line.
<Frogger>	sehh: You don't know your history. Tim Sipples has been one of the biggest OS/2 boosters.
<`\\\arvin>	Tim-IBM: It would seem that the commercials that were put out for warp, were about nuns in monestaries ... stuff that bears no relevance to Warp's power and performance!
<Nenad>	b_wardell: why not do WarpBlinds instead of tinketing with Win16 code? :(
<Ltning>	Tim-IBM: Will IBM then help turn it more towards end-users, since that is what Stardock wishes to do? Then I mean in the fixpak development and such?
<Frogger>	OK, so what is needed is a true Team OS/2 with out the idiot zealots.
<_Sid_C>	Did IBM make the OS/2 Warp commercials terrible on purpose; because that is the impression I got from them. No one could purposely do such a rotten job at advertising a product.
<tom>	I want WarpBlinds =)
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: DAMN !!!! Don't TELL US TO HELP.. IF IBM ALWAYS KILLS EVERYTHING free people try to produce !!
<`\\\arvin>	Grabbing a hold of the industry by the nads, with a "kickass" support base for the end-user.. and kick-ass commercial base would make it fly
<b_wardell>	Nenad: Because there's not enough of a market to justify the cost of doing such a product.
<mandie>	Frogger: have y;ou checked out VOICE lately :)
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: in germany you had a big succes with OS/2 Warp 3 (more preloads than windows) but ibm-germany HAD TO STOP adverts because of IBM-USA :-(
<sehh>	Frogger: do you thin ibm really supports os/2 in the public? if you think that then you are a real moron...
<`\\\arvin>	so far i'm lucky to see an ad, period
<b_wardell>	Ltning: IBm woudl be the developer of the core parts of this client, marketing for such a client would have to come from Stardock. And we would target the horizontal market (end users, SOHO, etc.)
<Isxios>	To be honest, I was not impressed by WindowsBlinds, and WarpBlinds is hardly on my mind at all
<Ltning>	b_wardell: Did you see my question about the win9x emulator??
<`\\\arvin>	b_wardell: i would pay out $ for os/2blinds in a second.. a native version
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: i'm willing to help OS/2 to succes, but WE CAN'T DO IT IF some guys at IBM TRY TO KILL OS/2
<Ltning>	b_wardell: Yes that is good. But will IBM change it's development focus to the things that is more important for end users?
<`\\\arvin>	i'm sure there are lots of us who would support your efforts.. we're here
<b_wardell>	Isxios: WindowBlinds is not a released product, it's a bit premature to be impressed or not impressed with it.
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: for what i feel and i know many are feeling IBM is stuck to OS/2 because some big customers resist on it..
<Nenad>	b_wardell: but if you're doing it for the potentional client allready?! you beleive client will sell better if win-os2 has warp buttons and icons?
<Tim-IBM>	Marvin (et. al.): If we want to revisit a decade or more of IBM's advertising (and its flaws) we can do it, but somehow I don't think that's going to make a bit of difference for the future.
<tom>	uhoh
<`\\\arvin>	Tim-IBM: ya i agree
<Isxios>	OK, I was unimpressed by the preview of it
<^Piggy^>	b_wardell: It would be nice to offer VMWare a little "encouragment" for an OS/2 version though. :)
<b_wardell>	Yea, it's in beta, I'm not sure what you're expecting out of a beta. Each version gets better.
<Isxios>	Proably because I actually like the way the WPS looks
<Pilot>	None we users can do will help OS/2 if IBM decides (already decided?) to kill OS/2, that's it.
<Isxios>	mostly
<sehh>	Frogger: now was that clever? instead of answering me and admitting that ibm give its full boost to os2, you just kick me.. lame..
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: and loosing those customores is kinda more expensive then spending some $ on doing a new server..
<b_wardell>	With WindowBlinds, I can make Windows look like OS/2. I have my NT machine here looking like OS/2 2.0 for instance.
<Klaus>	Pilot: 100% agree
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: can you tell me, why i should use an OS/2 Server ??? IBM pushes windoze NT and Linux for everything..
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: what do u need OS/2 for ??
<Pilot>	The only thing we can do then -- help Gnome and KDE people port WPS to Linix :(((
<madodel0>	Stop the personal flaming/bating please.
<scoff>	b_wardell: one WPS improvement would be to fix how the INI files get clogged with old and invalid references, build the cleaning functionality of checkini right into the system
<b_wardell>	You guys are talking like IBM is a monolithic company.
<Ltning>	b_wardell: again, about the win9x emulator.. Or perhaps I should ask Tim about that?
<Nenad>	b_Wardell: btw, that new game, is that going to be a Monopolization with not so good graphics?
<_Sid_C>	I was speaking to a friend of mine at work, who does consulting in the software industry, and he seems to think that IBM is gearing up for something HUGE, and that MS should be worried. Do you anything about this. Does IBM have an ACE up their sleeve?
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: and the next problem.. if you have 100% WinNT-CLients in a network, why should a company spend a lot of money on a guy adminsitrating an OS/2-Server ????
<b_wardell>	There will be no Win95 emulator.
<Isxios>	b_wardell: I'm not knocking you or your product, I just said I wasn't impressed. I am more worried about greater things than how the WPS looks
<Ltning>	b_wardell: there is already one internally in IBM!!!!
<Tim-IBM>	IBM *always* will provide choice. Warp Server for e-business is a FANTASTIC server -- and we'll say so. But if you want an NT or Linux solution, we'll help there too.
<b_wardell>	We're not going to get into a Win32 compatibility thing. OS/2 will have to get native software of its own as well as work better with JAVA software.
<^Piggy^>	b_wardell: Is there any chance of "wooing" VMWare?
<jjurban>	We don't want no steenkin' W95 emulator.
<Klaus>	all if you're looking for an win9x emulator check www.os2.org for "Project Odin"
<VMan>	Odin is no emulator
<^Piggy^>	some of us would like the option of an emulator.
<WalterOS2>	IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY OS/2 was killed, so see http://os.about.com/library/blnews.htm and STOP ABUSING TIM who is nice enought to come here on his spare time!!!!!
<tom>	wine (www.winehq.com) will be ported to os/2 soon
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: Sure.. as much as M$ gives you the choice of the Browser.. hey wake up.. If you don't PICK on Getting OS/2 nobody at IBM even KNOWS OS/2 is alive...
<Isxios>	b_wardell: I happen to stand up for you quite a bit when bitch fests brake out over SD
<Tim-IBM>	TheSeer: Because frankly Warp Server manages NT clients (even if that's all you have) 10 times better than anything else out there. (Check out WorkSpace for Windows.)
<Klaus>	VMan: ok, but.. you know what i mean ,-)
<Nenad>	b_wardell: like CMD.EXE or WPS recognizing .CLASS as executable extension? Linux 2.2 does it, I beleive
<b_wardell>	If people want to run Windows 98 programs, they should run Windows 98. We'll be trying to encourage people to write and work with native OS/2 software.
<mandie>	Walter: I actually think Tim is being used as a scapegoat...it's IBM that is being attacked
<_Sid_C>	I prefer OS/2 be all native; nothing to do with MS (Windows, any flavor).
<Tim-IBM>	But we're getting pretty far off topic. I'm not here to defend IBM for its perceived or real flaws. I'm here to try to provide information about the future, to the extent I can.
<b_wardell>	Isxios: Thanks.
<Tim-IBM>	So let's not dwell on the past, OK? It's water under the bridge.
<mandie>	We all appreciate the time and support that Tim puts into the os2 community
<Ltning>	b_wardell: I agree on that. But if the product is already made and functioning...
<_Sid_C>	OS/2 native, kills Windows native.
<tom>	b_wardell: but we know for a fact real is NOT going to port realaudio to OS/2, so we need to rely on an emulator....
<VMan>	Moderate this thing. All this flaming is getting annoying
<Ltning>	Anyway, I'm looking forward to see what StarDock can do out of this, in cooperation with IBM. It is just that I see many things that doesn't seem to have been debated enough...
<WalterOS2>	Mandie: it still really bugs me: it's hardly Tim's fault!
<b_wardell>	Is there a reel audio for Linux?
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: sorry.. don't wanna attack you.. But it's damn feeling like running against a wall..
<jadeh>	I agree with b_wardell; we don't need Win32 or 9X apps. Native OS/2 apps would be better. Look at StarOffice, for example. The latest version is pretty good, and it's a good product.
<mandie>	Walter: I'm sure it's not intended personally against tim :)
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: i called IBM to get a copy of warp Server and they didn't even KNOW that they still sell it..
<Frogger>	Brad: Yes, there is real audio for Linux.
<VMan>	jadeh: right
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: don't tell me that's offering a choice..
<Nenad>	jadeh: Odin gives you native OS/2 apps
<Nenad>	jadeh: from Win32 binaries, that is
<Isxios>	Tim-IBM: Can you say with any certainty, that IBM would stand behind Stardock to assure that OS/2 succeeded in the future, or will they change their minds in a few months and drop this the way they drop so many other things>
<awillis>	The only thing I need win compatibility for is games
<_Sid_C>	b_wardell, I never got a chance, so here it is: Thanks for giving us Object Desktop (I own version 1.5), and the many other OS/2 programs.
*	Projects could care less about realaudio... but one app that I use daily is a problem
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: if even Lotus (100% IBM) dosn't want to develop a new OS/2 Notes Client (and dosn't want to sell their SmartSuite to me until i ordered >100 Licences) how do you think we can motivate others to develop an OS/2 Product?
<b_wardell>	Frogger: So we'd need to make a convincing case that a ReelAduio for OS/2 would be in their best interests.
<Galileo>	Tim-IBM, why OS/2 doesnt have little details ??? (like autoscrolling bars or a way to know how many bytes are inside a folder instead of dir /s) That doesnt need hard thinking or programing. Little details make things beautifull.
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: and many companys kick out os/2 because they don't know anyone who can HANDLE it..
<b_wardell>	Afterall, ReelAudio is getting killed slowly by MediaPlayer on Windows.
<awillis>	real work is done with native software
<JE_Hoover>	Brad / Tim ... Will IBM / Stardock release the code that was released around the date W4 was released that runs W95 software but that IBM did not release ... will IBM also release the transperancy code that was in the Beta of W4 that allowed transparent windows ... and as for Odin .. project Odin was commerciallly done by IBM at the time W4 was done but that code was never released
<b_wardell>	Those who pray to the Microsoft gods are subject to their wrath as well.
<tom>	b_wardell: NOT! every single live audio station that I've seen uses ra g2 .. not windows media
<b_wardell>	Sid_C: thanks!
<Tim-IBM>	TheSeer: There are 100,000 other products in the same category. We're better than we have been, but if you're going to measure IBM by whether one (or even a few) of 280,000 employees knows every answer when you call out of the blue...
<Nenad>	b_Wardell: btw, that new game, is that going to be a Monopolization with not so good graphics?
<b_wardell>	tom: Perhaps presently, but more and more people I know have stopped using it in favor of Windows Media player.
<jjurban>	... and those who sell their souls to the Microsoft demons are subject to collection too.
<Tim-IBM>	TheSeer: But what are YOU going to do? What can YOU do to make OS/2 Warp a success? IBM spent millions (and will spend millions more, indefinitely).
<tom>	hmm..
<_Sid_C>	b_wardell, Your certainly welcome. I hope to buy more OS/2 software from Stardock, in the near future.
<b_wardell>	Nenad: Yes, our next OS/2 game, called FUD (Fear, Uncertainty & Doubt) will be simlar to Monopolization.
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: if i call a sales person and ask for an NT-Solution.. or .. better example.. try to get a Thinkpad without paying for windoze ! :)
<b_wardell>	Heck, maybe we'd bundle it with the client.
<mandie>	Tim: what can we, the common desktop user, do to make OS/2 a success?
<Frogger>	The trouble with new native OS/2 software is the history behind OS/2 and IBM support (or lack of) of ISV. Who is willing to stake their companies future on it when IBM hasn't gotten behind it?
<Projects>	Tim-IBM: I'll do whatever I can... just point me in the right direction :)
<mandie>	Projects: exactly
<awillis>	Ibm now sells osless thinkpads (they market it for linux
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: i don't have millions to spend.. all i can do is offer my spare time to support it.. and i already do.. I code the webpages of netlabes and co-administrate the os2.org servers..
<Nenad>	I don't undestan how you people can read all this and find some time to type... :)
*	Projects has staked his company's future on OS/2...
<Galileo>	..I put and web site about how configure OS/2 on a Aptiva 2162, because that aptiva doesnt have IBM's support for OS/2.
<Frogger>	Tim-IBM: Yes, IBM spent a lot of money. Somehow it seemed rather ineffectual, sorrowfully.
<Galileo>	...so dont look at me.
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: i do support for a lot of people on irc and i try to help companys using os/2..
<b_wardell>	Frogger: One thing I should mention, this OS/2 client we speak of will NOT be called OS/2.
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: i guess that's enough for me as a single person..
<jjurban>	jjurban has staked his company's and his own future on OS/2.
<madodel0>	awillis: where? I haven't seen any non-wintrash thinkpads
<Ltning>	Tim-IBM: IBM also spent a lot of money creating a win95-os2. Too bad you couldn't release it. But perhaps you can at this time?
<Isxios>	OS/2000?
<Nenad>	OS/2 Web sites are like isolated islands...
*	sehh hopes that the client will have real multimedia support unlike the current nonexistant support
<b_wardell>	This is not a bash IBM channel guys.
<Projects>	b_wardell: so what's in a name? It's the underlying product that counts
<b_wardell>	Tim's on your side.
<sehh>	Nenad: check out http://www.warp.in-uk.net :)
<^Piggy^>	b_wardell: What would it be called then?
<Isxios>	what name are you thinking of?
<Nenad>	someone should create portal and search engine, lot's of info is wasted
<Tim-IBM>	Mandie: Make reasonable demands, be willing to pay for quality software and service, and continue to provide *constructive* criticism (and, yes, even a compliment or two when merited :-)).
<b_wardell>	Projects: I agree, but from a perspection standpoint, it'll be able to avoid that "Isn't OS/2 dead" crap.
<sehh>	b_wardell: but it is.. its their fault that they killed os/2..
<jjurban>	Warp 5.
<b_wardell>	perception I mean.
<Klaus>	b_wardell: we don't want to bash IBM, we're just talking about Warp5 and marketing ,-)
<Frogger>	It doesn't matter what it's called, everyone will know it as OS/2.
<^Piggy^>	New name would be a good idea....
<TheSeer>	IBM spent a lot of money on os/2ppc and didn't release it..
<awillis>	madodol0: I don't remember the where just the fact I saw them
<Tim-IBM>	TheSeer: Excellent! That's good!
<Galileo>	lets e-mail Lou Gerstner and show him how we feel !!!! http://www.ibm.com/scripts/email-lvg.pl
<b_wardell>	IBm would have nothing to do with the WArp 5 client marketing.
<sehh>	Klaus: you mean the BAD marketing..
<Isxios>	b_wardell: What name are you thinking of?
<WalterOS2>	sehh: Before you blame IBM alone, go read the articles at http://os2.about.com/library/blnews.htm.
<Klaus>	sehh: i'm thinking of "learning from mistakes" ,-)
<VMan>	Brad: do you have any names in mind?
<awillis>	b_wardel: what type fo marketing is stardock looking to do then?
<Ltning>	Why does neither Tim or Brad answer my question? Should be straight-forward enough..
<b_wardell>	TheSeer: That wasn't OS/2's fault, that was the hardware guy's faults. The entire OS/2 for the PowerPC project was based on the idea that PowerPC would be orders of magnitude faster than Intel. Remember the whole "the x86 line has too much baggage to keep up." well, they were wrong and so that killed OS/2 for the PowerPC.
<WarpHoss>	yes mandie!> what can I the avg joe os/2 end user do to ensure warp5 clients' success in profitability for tim, IBM, Brad and all the os/2 community? ? Brad and tim?>
<Tim-IBM>	Ltning: What's your question?
<Klaus>	b_wardell: that's good, I hope you'll succeed...
<b_wardell>	VMan: We have the name picked out but aren't releasing it yet.
<^Piggy^>	b_wardell: What companies name would it be sold under? Both?
<Tim-IBM>	WarpHoss: Buying a few copies helps!
*	mandie put the channel in mode +secret
<maximum>	I would go for even a 32-bit OS/2 on a PowerPC.
<Projects>	"a rose by any other name is still a rose"
*	Nenad is practicing dark magic on b_wardell's head
<b_wardell>	Stardock.
<mandie>	brad: ok, ou can tell us now :)
<TheSeer>	b_wardell: well.. a PPC is way faster then Intel..
<Ltning>	Tim-IBM: About the already-made win95-os2. I know it exist, I have seen it. I know that you had problems releasing it with warp4, and I understand that. But perhaps it's about time to re-think that question now?
<Klaus>	b_wardell: i'll write an article about the Warp5 client, and believe me, it will be positive..
*	Nenad is reading...
<b_wardell>	It would be Stardock powered by IBM OS/2 technology on the front box.
<b_wardell>	Klaus: Cool. tahnks.
<_Sid_C>	One thing is for certain; if OS/2 is ever to become a choice for the people who currently use Windows 9.x, a very good arguement for the switch to OS/2 MUST be made. It must be made in a way that is convincing and desireable. Also, OS/2 needs ADVERTISEMENT, and game support. Look what MS did with an inferior product and a lot of GOOD marketing. How about an awesome product (OS/2), and excellent marketing.
<Isxios>	StardockOS
<mandie>	b_wardell: does GDOUG get to pick out the box cover :)
<Tim-IBM>	But, most importantly, try not to "cheese off" anyone you meet who isn't "enlightened." :-) Nobody wants to talk to a fanatic. :-)
<^Piggy^>	b_wardell: So it wouldn't be a total dumping of the OS/2 name?
<Ltning>	StarOS
<TheSeer>	Isxios: in short SOS ? *EG*
<Nenad>	b_wardell: any chance of replacing LVM.EXE with something more intuitive and consistent?
<Isxios>	:)
<StevenL>	A while ago, it was mentioned C and Java tools would be bundled. What about CPP which is better for native appications?
<scoff>	And now that Linux has made preinstall inroads into HP, Dell and Compaq, will os/2 be preloaded?
<b_wardell>	mandie: Grin.
<Ltning>	Tim-IBM: Did you get my question this time?
<jadeh>	_Sid_C: One strong feature OS/2 has is stability!
<sehh>	Nenad: LVM is great!
<Fuzy|ogic>	C is what PM seem sot be centered around.
<sehh>	Nenad: the text mode LVM that is..
<Klaus>	Isxios: no StardockOS sounds like a gamers platform I would prefer the name for the PowerPC OS/2 "WORKPLACE OS"
<b_wardell>	Nenad: Probably not in the first version.
<sehh>	Nenad: the java gui LVM is just a shit front-end..
<Projects>	Tim-IBM: I talk to fanatics on a daily basis... all MS fanatics. I know exactly where you're coming from...
<b_wardell>	Why do people run Linux as a client?
<Fuzy|ogic>	C is what PM seems to be centered around.
<Isxios>	Don't like that
<Tim-IBM>	Sid: It is unlikely anyone is going to go head-to-head against Windows, nor would I recommend it. There are other ways to try to compete.
<WarpHoss>	B&T?> How do we convince others to do the same when they are already brainwashed into believing is a way of life?
<TheSeer>	If you search for software, stuff to be coded, check out www.netlabs.org
<Isxios>	Millenium OS
<^Piggy^>	I like Linux as a client. Stable and powerful.
<TheSeer>	if you don't find it, add your with to the wishlist..
<_Sid_C>	Tim-IBM, okay ;-)
<Nenad>	sehh: LVM user interface is very incosistent... combines event-driver with menu-guided design
<Tim-IBM>	Ltning: No, where's your question?
<StevenL>	Mesa is CPP and I could go on...
<Ltning>	Tim-IBM: About the already-made win95-os2. I know it exist, I have seen it. I know that you had problems releasing it with warp4, and I understand that. But perhaps it's about time to re-think that question now?
<Ltning>	Tim-IBM: there.
<Ltning>	:)
<Galileo>	....I know, lets put a Sport Illustrated chick on the OS/2 box cover!!!!!
<Tim-IBM>	We have a name -- it's a good one.
<sehh>	Nenad: the text mode lvm is great.. dunno what you mean
<Frogger>	Brad: Why do I run Linux as a client. (1) Cuz it's fun (2) It has a bright future (3) it's a happening place. :-)
<Nenad>	sehh: later... :)
<_Sid_C>	Tim-IBM, in NUMBERS, does IBM dwarf MS. Is IBM worth more than MS? I know IBM's stock is worth more than MS's.
<b_wardell>	Frogger: Exactly. You mind if I use that response?
<Nenad>	Piggy: Linux is stable because it has no features ;)
<JimLarson>	My name choice is "I Can't Believe it's not Windows"
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: it would be REALLY great if IBM could release some OS/2 code, where they stoped development (like MMOS/2, WPS, WEB-EXPLORER and THE WIN95 EMU)
<Fuzy|ogic>	frogger: as may a new Client be :)
<Frogger>	Brad: It's yours.
<^Piggy^>	Nenad: So is NT.
<Frogger>	Fuzy|ogic: Oh, I hope so. OS/2 is where my heart is.
<jjurban>	How about "Un-Windows"
<b_wardell>	I like JimLarson's name.
<b_wardell>	Maybe that's what we should call it.
<TheSeer>	aaaaaaaaaaarg
<Fuzy|ogic>	No, OS/2 shouldn't associated with Windows at all. It's Big, Blue, different, better...
<TheSeer>	WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' EMULATION OF WINDOZE::
<Isxios>	Nova OS
<Projects>	hehehe
<sehh>	how about "I knew there was something better than windows"
<Nenad>	Borg 2000 :)
<Ltning>	TheSeer: to move users from windows we do. :(
<^Piggy^>	With the slogan "Kinda like Windows, except it doesn't suck!"
<Isxios>	Phoenix 2000
<Tim-IBM>	Ltning: No, I don't think so (and I would dispute the premise of your question).
<Klaus>	Fuzy|ogic: right!, if I want winsucks, i'd buy the original
<maximum>	No, we need to run Windows native mode on OS/2.
<Nenad>	^Piggy^: "if Windows sucked, it would be good for something" :)
<_Sid_C>	Warp 2000: Code name: ORION
<Galileo>	TheSeer: we only need all the Win95 apps for OS/2.
<Ltning>	Why does the linux world embrace WINE and such so much then?
<Frogger>	Well, Warp 4 was Merlin. I'd like Warp 5 to be Osprey. :-) Or Kestrel.
<TheSeer>	aaaaaaaarg..
<TheSeer>	you all should read a F*CKIN NEWSREADER..
<Ltning>	Tim-IBM: Meaning you are denying that this product has been developed within IBM?
<Isxios>	no birds
<Tim-IBM>	Sid: Microsoft has a higher market capitalization than IBM, I believe.
<jjurban>	Or Peregrine
<b_wardell>	Another FAQ: Object Desktop would NOT be bundled. There'd be Stardock technologies included but the product Object Desktop would not be bundled. We want to keep the client as lean as possible while advancing it at the same time.
<TheSeer>	go to www.netlabs.org and check out for ODIN..
<VMan>	Nenad: Borg 2000? Isn't that NT 5's name?
<Nenad>	Warp 5 should be Vulture :)))
<TheSeer>	that'll be much better then a stinkin emulation..
<jjurban>	Tim, they're getting closer in market cap now.
<Galileo>	...I would like to be IO.
<WarpHoss>	If I wanted emulation I would let someone else sign my work.
<Projects>	hahahahaha
<b_wardell>	Well guys, let's finish up, I'm goign to head out here shortly.
<Klaus>	b_wardell: what do you want to bundle with the warp5 client?
<jjurban>	Galileo first saw IO.
<Isxios>	Personally, I like Athena
<b_wardell>	Any last minute questions?
<StevenL>	DOS hint. MS controls Windows. If you want to sell PC's this influences business decisions. Regardless of how big you are.
<WarpHoss>	B_WARDELL> When?
<Galileo>	.or maybe Callisto.
<^Piggy^>	Hey, all I was suggesting was a little light pressure to VMWare for an OS/2 version. If someone doesn't want it don't buy it.
<maximum>	Just don't use Warpicity.
<jjurban>	Brad, Tim, Stardock, IBM --- Godspeed!
<_jm>	Tim-IBM: Does lotus have plans to market a notes client/server for warp4? Tha
<Nenad>	b_wardell: any _completely_ new OS/2 software from SD this year?
<Tim-IBM>	Ltning: I'm not denying that IBM works on a bunch of things... that don't ship because they aren't complete (and/or completable).
<Frogger>	Tim-IBM: MS does have a higher market cap than IBM, it's true. It's also insane! The P/E ratio is horrendous! I think it's a bubble. And one that might burst if they have some justice done to them in the anti-trust trial.
<_Sid_C>	b_wardell, please before you go; what is a good way for ppl to get suggestions to you?
<mandie>	Brad and Tim: Thank you for all of the information presented tonight and as always, your ever faithful support to the OS/2 community :)
<b_wardell>	Klaus: I can't yet specify that. But it'll be super cool I assure you. We have one specific feature that NO OS has that when people hear about it everyone will think that every OS should have. I can't emntion it because other OS's will copy this feature I'm sure.
<`\\\arvin>	Tim-IBM: I would think IBM has the $ to start expanding os/2's multimedia capabilities, working with other companies to make it a competitive OS of choice for hi-end development tools.. (AutoCAD, Photoshop, SoftImage, LightWave etc) ... What's your position on this? OS/2 certainly has the raw power to handle it.
<Isxios>	b_wardell: Do you believe in this project? Not just from a financial point of view, but deep down, do you believe in it?
<jadeh>	b_wardell: I'd like to see improved TCP/IP support (just my 2 cents)
<_Sid_C>	b_wardell, Suggestions for Warp, software, etc..
<Ltning>	Tim-IBM: Seeing word97 running on an os2 desktop is near-complete enough for me ...
<Nenad>	Sid_C: use SD's news server
<b_wardell>	Nenad: Depends on what you mean by completely new.
<WarpHoss>	>mandie agreed> Thank-you -thankyou thank you both!
<PaperMach>	Thanks Tim and Brad--Good night
<b_wardell>	Stellar Frontier is completely new for OS/2.
<b_wardell>	Oh couple things:
<b_wardell>	Stardock has a news server:
<b_wardell>	news.stardock.com
<Frogger>	Goodnight Tim, Brad. And thanks.
<b_wardell>	There is a stardock.os2 group and a stardock.os2.support news group
<StevenL>	Nite Tim, Brad...
<Isxios>	No answer?
<b_wardell>	We also have an IRC channel on EFNet (#stardock)
<Galileo>	....Im going to name my first son Rumpelstiky if you put autoscrolling bars on OS/2 client Brad.
<VMan>	Screw photoshop. We have GIMP
<Tim-IBM>	JM: Domino server, absolutely -- you can download the beta at http://notes.net. A browser (Netscape) is a wonderful Domino client, and the 4.5.7b (+) works pretty well for the rest (and is still supported). Beyond that, we'll see...
<Klaus>	b_wardell: super cool is nice, but please let the OS be rock solid and usable too ,-)
<Nenad>	b_wardell: well... something new :) I don't know, I don't use OD and I do my own themes... something fresh :)
<`\\\arvin>	Tim-IBM: Getting an exceptionally awesome Graphics and sound base for that, could make game & app development for stardock and other companies flourish! Direct-X like libs stuff would be great!
<mandie>	b_wardell: much bashing on the efnet channel? or good discussion?
<_Sid_C>	Thanks Tim, and Brad for all that you have done for us, and continue to do. Brad, thanks again for supporting OS/2; I beleave in you and your company! ;-)
<Ltning>	mandie: both, I would guess...
<b_wardell>	Klaus: It's not the type of feature you'd expect from us, it doesn't harm stability at all (not even potentially).
<b_wardell>	Thanks Sid.
<Nenad>	Arvin: SciTech will provide DirectX like primitives in their OS/2 drivers
<_Sid_C>	welcome
<madodel0>	Just a reminder that next month #voice will welcome Lynn Maxson as our guest in a Speakup event on his Warpicity Proposal - 7/12/99 8PM EDT
<b_wardell>	Warpicity?
<mandie>	WArpi :)
<Nenad>	they also said they'll try to convince IBM to include those into regular OS/2 drivers so developers can use them (including 3D)
<WarpHoss>	ok B&T> Christmas? or sooner? I really do have a budget and it hinges on your decisions...
<b_wardell>	Before end of this year.
<Tim-IBM>	Well, my closing thought is that Stardock and IBM both are going to be working toward a realistic business plan. This has got to be sustainable.
<_Sid_C>	b_wardell, whatever the outcome, live long and prosper.
<b_wardell>	If things aren't settled by then, it won't ever be settled probably.
<maximum>	You eat twenty minutes into my time at WarpStock98 and you miss it!
<madodel0>	b_wardell: Read the June VOICE newsletter tomorrow. :-)
<Nenad>	who is Lynn Maxson?
<Isxios>	b_wardell: Do you believe?
<Ltning>	b_wardell, Tim-IBM I wish you the best of luck. One piece of advice, though: Listen to your customers... They are your living. :)
<b_wardell>	Hope you can edit the log to be readable with all our chattering.
<mandie>	maximum: tell him who you are :)
<_jm>	thanks Tim-IBM for talking with us.
<Tim-IBM>	And we have to be realistic about what can and cannot be delivered immediately in terms of enhancements. But, while saying both those things, I'm hopefully that we'll be able to get something new and wonderful to market. We'll try.
<b_wardell>	I agree.
<maximum>	maximum is Lynn Maxson.
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: can we do an IBM<>OS/2 speakup in the near future on this chanal? please
*	mandie met Lynn at Warpstock 98 :)
<`\\\arvin>	Tim-IBM: There are developers here in this channel at this very minute *cough*
<b_wardell>	Oi, full blown "Abuse IBM". heh. ;)
<VMan>	Speakup with Netlabs!!!!
<Abraxas>	-> Speaking of which (logfile) ...
<madodel0>	Nenad: Read the June VOICE Newsletter tomorrow. There are a couple of articles on Warpicity
<Nenad>	maximum: and who are you and what is your proposal? :)
<Isxios>	Well, good night.
<WarpHoss>	Positive Progress and Release is all I am asking B&T!
<Swanee>	Brad & Tim, Thank you. I had a hard time keeping up :-)
<b_wardell>	Good night all.
<`\\\arvin>	b_wardell: LOL
<mandie>	g'night Brad
*	Abraxas is looking for a volunteer to edit tonight's logfile :-)))
<mandie>	err..frogboy :)
<FrogBoy>	ribbit.
<mandie>	lol
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: again, sorry fur crushing all those things on you but.. If IBM markets OS/2 Warp Server as an e-Business-thing.. why isn't there a multi-user-system in the tcp/ip ??
<Isxios>	FrogBoy: Do you believe?
<Tim-IBM>	Good night, Brad. We'll be in touch. :-)
<Projects>	hehehe
<VMan>	Hey, frogboy, next time I will get ya in Stellar Frontier (you humilliated me)
<Nenad>	multi-user would be nice...
<maximum>	Nenad, read the June VOICE newsletter.
<Projects>	Thanks Tim/Brad for your time
<VMan>	Thanks
<Nenad>	maximum: ok, ok... I read those regularily
*	Longstaff thanks tonight's guests for a lively and provocative meeting
<`\\\arvin>	Tim-IBM & Brad: Thanks taking the time out of your schedules to show up tonight. Was great having a chance to talk with you'se!
<WarpHoss>	the big guns are leaving ,, what can we .22 calibres do?
<Drifter_>	Well it looks like it's over
<Nenad>	restarting WPS and logging in would be nice, too
<FrogBoy>	Gnight Tim. Good night Johnboy!
*	Projects prods madodel: see, one more person reads the newsletter :)
<Ltning>	Nenad: wps can't be restarted with OD installed :)
<Gayland>	Thanks! and good evening.
<^Piggy^>	See ya FrogBoy
<Tim-IBM>	I think I can stay for 10 minutes or so...
<Nenad>	local security based on SES would be nice, too
<Nenad>	Ltning: hehe :)
<Tim-IBM>	But Brad has to head out...
<Drifter_>	Any1 who has a Iomega Ditto Max tape drive and would like to beta test a new release of BackMaster /msg me
*	Swanee will have his resume on Brad's doorstep in the morning
<`\\\arvin>	you go, swanee :)
<`\\\arvin>	hehehe
<maximum>	Tim-IBM: You have two years of Software Choice behind you. Why not lower the subscription price to an affordable $20 or $40 per year?
<Fuzy|ogic>	I am most interested in the development software, when will that be open for discussion? That might be what saves us..
<Nenad>	Tim-IBM: are you aware of IBM working on some major improvement to the core base OS/2 operating system right now? :)
<jjurban>	Tim, well I asked Brad about Object REXX and VoiceType Dictation. I really hope these can be included, at least in some kind of PlusPak (at a price).
<Isxios>	Gee, I guess he didn't believe. Was it such a strange question?
<Tim-IBM>	Maximum: Simply because of cold, hard mathematics. All that stuff (free and fee) costs money to develop.
<scoff>	Tim: is a fall out from the DOJ trials that MS can not up the price of windows to OEMs that also offer OS/2 and or Linux? and will this mean we might see os/2 preloads finallY?
<mandie>	time=$
<Tim-IBM>	Maximum: But if the Stardock proposal flies, Software Choice gets more valuable.
<Drifter_>	Klaus: there is no 4.0, this is the newest build it's 3.2h
<maximum>	I paid $1500 dollars to Software Choice, 4 clients and 1 Advanced Servier. I lost on the gamble on the client, made out on the server.
*	madodel0 bought an advanced DevCon subscription and d/l'd WSe-b
<jjurban>	I can offer to test, debug and even document Object REXX and VoiceType.
<`\\\arvin>	$1500 is a lot of cash
*	sehh is away, auto-gone [tv/lp]
<Tim-IBM>	Maximum: Yes you did! Software Choice for Warp Server was (is) a great deal! We'll work on the client, too...
<Nenad>	Tim: what, what? :)
<maximum>	Tim-IBM: Cold hard mathematics says that most people who used Software Choice did not pay a dime. So why not collect 20 or 30 dollars from them to help defray costs?
<`\\\arvin>	whUUHH?! `oO'
<Tim-IBM>	Nenad: We just shipped a huge one! Warp Server for e-business. Some of the most radically useful core enhancements in years!
<Nenad>	Tim: I allways hoped to see VoiceType on Software Choice :)
*	WarpHoss warphoss wanted udb/2 5.2 trail and got shipped bad disks and can't get them replaced wil this happen to new client?
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: are there any plans to make use of the LanServer-User-System for any other server-component ??
<`\\\arvin>	BAH
<`\\\arvin>	Tim-IBM: How about making/releasing a ViaVoice GOLD for OS/2?
<Swanee>	jjurban: I'd like to see VoiceType back in it too. (or via voice)
<JimLarson>	JimLarson subscribed to Software Choice and feels he got jipped royally!
<`\\\arvin>	Tim-IBM: afaik ViaVoice has been developed, just not released ;)
<Fuzy|ogic>	Voice needs an update...
<Nenad>	Tim-IBM: yes, I know, but most of it does not show on the surface... what I really need is user-controlable NLS support, like ability to select (prepare) more than two codepages and to select any of those
<jjurban>	I gave up hope on ViaVoice. I'd settle for VoiceType.
<Tim-IBM>	And I did warn everyone to get Software Choice for Warp Server, didn't I? :-)
<`\\\arvin>	Voicetype is just slow
<Galileo>	..VIAVOICE 98 !!!
<mandie>	that you did
<madodel>	but not everyone has a copy of Warp Server
<Nenad>	Tim-IBM: warn us to get one for the client! ;)
<Abraxas>	Tim-IBM Yes, you did :-))) .... I think, though, that Devcon is a better choice
<`\\\arvin>	Tim-IBM: i'm a student and developer here.. not a millionaire! :P
<`\\\arvin>	=)
<Tim-IBM>	TheSeer: Um, you're on the right track, but I think that's an enhancement coming in 2000.
<WarpHoss>	Abraxas> agreed.
<Swanee>	Nenad: :-)
<Nenad>	Abraxas: you can use that version of Aurora only for development, I beleive
<Galileo>	tsipple@us.ibm.com
<`\\\arvin>	Being able to get Academic versions of Warp here would be nice
<Galileo>	[20:29] thanks!
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: kewl.. any more details on that ??
<`\\\arvin>	Academic pricign on development tools too, would be nice
<Tim-IBM>	Marvin: If you have a finite budget, you have to pick the top priorities, and right now that isn't ViaVoice for the Warp family.
<Galileo>	oops !!
<WalterOS2>	Tim-IBM: I need to be going, but I want thank you for putting up with us and giving us your time tonight. I really appreciate the support you give the OS/2 Community.
<Fuzy|ogic>	I got Warp for $85 adac and VAC++ 4 for $99 ACAD...
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: i need to handle a lot of stuff and it actually looks like i need to switch to linux to have the security it needs..
<Nenad>	mark the words "right now"! :)
<maximum>	I belong to DevCon as well, most recently as a Premier user. I agree with Mark. Maybe if IBM did not have so many fee options.:)
<Tim-IBM>	Nenad: I know you've asked about this in the Stardock news forums. But Warp Server for e-business just improved the multilanguage support again.
*	`\\\arvin cannot get Academic pricing here in Ontario, Canada.
<maximum>	Yes, thank you, Tim.
*	WarpHoss thanks our knight "in underthecoversarmour" Tim_IBM.
<Nenad>	Tim-IBM: probably, but still not at Win95 level :( I can't type in more languages even in two separate programs, not to mention the same program
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: a question, kinda of topic, where do i get a US (!) copy of WSEB in germany ?
<Pliny>	Thanks much Brad & Tim!
<Abraxas>	Tim-IBM .. I'd like to get a an official IBM interpretation of the following
<Tim-IBM>	Thank you, Walter.
<`\\\arvin>	Tim-IBM: is there a reason for that? i was able to get it at some point, but not anymore. Also, with regards to multilanguage support - a friend of mine who types in Hebrew, would like to get hebrew support under warp 4, but can't seem to. Know of a solution you could point him to?
<Nenad>	Tim-IBM: the voice type issue wouldn't be so hurting if OS/2 never had such thing, but since v4 was marketed as "voice enabled" and even sold with microphones, it's a big set-back now :(
<Abraxas>	Tim-IBM in the WS-eB "License Information" it staes:
<Tim-IBM>	TheSeer: Warp (client) is a distinctly single user system, and I don't see that changing immediately.
<Nenad>	arvin: aurora has hebrew support included
<Tim-IBM>	TheSeer: WorkSpace is much different, though.
<`\\\arvin>	Nenad: Aurora is also $1500 :) He bought Warp 4
<Nenad>	mark the words "immediately" :))
<Nenad>	`arvin: hopefuuly, the client would be less :)
<Abraxas>	"Authorization for Copy7 and Use on Home/Portable Computer ..... Not Applicable for this program"
<Tim-IBM>	WarpHoss: Hah! :-)
<`\\\arvin>	for himself, his family and can't get the typing to go from right-to-left
<Nenad>	`arvin: I'm just saying that it's improved, but not really flexible enoguh
<Nenad>	enough
<`\\\arvin>	nor can he display hebrew fonts
<`\\\arvin>	Nenad: ah ok :)
<Drifter_>	laters all
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: well... what i have in mind - or need - is a WarpServer-Based thing were i can allow telnet-access limited to some actions and directroys..
<`\\\arvin>	Cya Drifter
<Drifter_>	Thanks Tim
<WarpHoss>	Tim_ibm> I see a reference to Host on demand at work does that mean I can access that with OS/2 or does it prevent me since "they " run NT?
<Tim-IBM>	TheSeer: Wow! Interesting question! Probably find a friendly guy in Germany at IBM like me.
<Abraxas>	Tim-IBM does this mean that WS e-B is not licensed for home use AT ALL??? or trhat the license agreement doesn't apply?
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: do you know if there is a ssh-client included in the WarpServer GA ?
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: and i don't see the reason to administrate mutliple accounts.. why doesn't the ftp-subsystem use the lanserver-users ?
<Nenad>	TheSeer: Mensys migh help you I think
<Galileo>	Tim-IBM can you say to update the JDK 1.1.7 installer inside of "IBM SOftware choice" with the lastest patch ?? If anyone want to download the JDK it should be great to download the lastest version.
<Ltning>	Good night people...
<Klaus>	Galileo: check out www.os2.org!
<mandie>	ltning: g'nite and thx for coming
<Tim-IBM>	Seer: A traditional BBS software package might fit the bill.
<Ltning>	bye mandie, tim and others.
<Ltning>	:)
<Nenad>	TheSeer: there's program that will link LAN users with FTP/telnet/rexec users
<Tim-IBM>	WarpHoss: OS/2 is an excellent Host On-Demand server and client.
<Galileo>	...the same on TCP/IP 4.1 !!
*	_Sid_C has set away! (auto away after idling [15 min]) [Log:ON] .gz.
<Klaus>	Galileo: chkeck out www.os2.org!
<Nenad>	hehe, I have native OS/2 BBS here with dos-like CLI interface :)
*	harlekin has set away! (auto away after idling [15 min]) [Log:ON] .gz.
<Fuzy|ogic>	I don't understand why I am the only person interested in what C development capabilities will come bundled.. I see that as a possible saving grace that will get the apps back!
<Tim-IBM>	Abraxas: It means you need a separate license, one for each system you install it on. Some software from IBM lets you install on both home and work (if there's only one user between the two systems).
<Nenad>	gcc probably
<Tim-IBM>	Seer: There's a third party telnet login utility that interfaces with LAN Server security. Check Hobbes.
<Fuzy|ogic>	A standard compiler for the community to work on is what we need to get opensource rolling on OS/2..
<WarpHoss>	Tim_IBM> thanks now how to convince "them" to allow me....?
*	Projects has it installed on both home/work machines... 'course both machines are one :)
*	mandie slaps Projects!
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: ok... will do.. how's the security after the login ? still all or nothing i gues..?!
<Tim-IBM>	Galileo: I think there's a link there, but you do have to download and install the service update for Java separately. I don't see that changing just because Java gets updated SO fast.
<Projects>	have 2 copies of warp 4 too :)
<Fuzy|ogic>	I was under the impression that gcc WAS NOT the included dev system.
<Tim-IBM>	Heck, Java 1.1.8 is in Preview now.
<mandie>	Java 1.1.8 is quite an improvement over 1.1.7
<Fuzy|ogic>	Swing is included I am told by Longstaff
<`\\\arvin>	Tim-IBM: Have stability issues changed dramatically? Java seems to crash & lock up my entire system here :(
<mandie>	fuzy: yep
<Nenad>	1.1.8 includes Swing, that's good
<Tim-IBM>	Seer: All or nothing, which is why BBS software can help.
<Longstaff>	Tim-IBM - yes.....thanks to ibm we have a widespread swing distribution in warp
<Nenad>	but takes too much RAM :(
<TheSeer>	ok.. will consider that point..
<Fuzy|ogic>	Tim-IBM: Please! Tell me that gcc IS NOT the included dev system.
<Tim-IBM>	Mandie: Indeed. Nearly 30% faster on standard benchmarks, in our testing.
*	`\\\arvin is always hopeful that the next version will bring a good future!
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: can you answer my query-question ?
<Tim-IBM>	Mandie: Should also be some nice scalability enhancements for that Volano benchmark, which was the one thing still wanting.
<Tim-IBM>	Mandie: And Java Comm, Swing, etc., etc.
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: on a 1500%-server it's hard to tell your boss: we have to install a sharewareBBS util ,-)
<Frogger>	Tim-IBM: Could you guesstimate the probability of a Warp 5 client coming from Stardock? Is it greater than 50%?
<mandie>	Tim: I didn't d/l the Comm API, isn't that just for programming?
<Tim-IBM>	Marvin: It's a good idea to get the latest service update for your Java -- that can often help. And, of course, if there's something wrong with the OS below (like a bad driver or old service level)...
<WarpHoss>	Tim_IBM> How far away are we from a PURE "OS2/J" OS?
*	TheSeer checks the clock.. damn.. 4 am..
<Longstaff>	mandie - the comm api enables printing and use of serial ports from within java
<Nenad>	comm api is for accessing serial ports
<mandie>	ahhhhhhhh
<mandie>	duh!
<Nenad>	printing?!
<Fuzy|ogic>	WarpHoss: bite your toungue!
*	Projects slaps mandie back :)
<Tim-IBM>	Fuzy: None of the decisions on components in any new Warp client (if any arrives) are final yet.
<Swanee>	mandie: Have you tried Simplicity with 1.1.8 yet?
<WarpHoss>	Swanee> I have. and it's beautiful.
<mandie>	swanee: I haven't play with java in quite some time..been too busy with other things :(
<Tim-IBM>	Frogger: If you hold a gun to my head, both Stardock and IBM would probably rate it 50-50.
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: this means, even an included VIA-Voice for os/2 is possible? 8-}
<Fuzy|ogic>	What are the odds there will be a client at all?
<Swanee>	I haven't dl'd 1.1.8 yet. But I have gotten a bit deeper into Simplicity and VAJava
<Nenad>	Via Voice for OS/2 is a question of pride! :)
<Frogger>	Tim-IBM: Nope, no guns. :-) I'll buy you a beer, though!
<Tim-IBM>	WarpHoss: You can pretty much do that today with not too much effort in CONFIG.SYS.
<Fuzy|ogic>	I mean, it sounds good, but I can't help but fear the worst.
<`\\\arvin>	Tim-IBM: Thanks for addressing that :) As for the multilanguage issue, and getting reported bugs looked after... is there a direction you could point me to?
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: side-question to MPTN.EXE : Does ibm even know of the BUG in the netbios-over-tcp/ip <-> netbios change ?
<Galileo>	...the config.sys must go to hell !!
<WarpHoss>	T_IBM> I have been toying with that you are welcome to send "specific" info.....
<mandie>	galileo: I'd prefer the config.sys and having control verses the registry
<DA_MAN>	\\\arvin: I can get you the educational versions of OS/2 in canada
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: namley that the netbeui$ in ibmlan.ini is *NOT* updated to tcpbeui$ if you change to nb-over-tcp/ip ?
<Frogger>	Tim-IBM: Are you at all worried about Brad and StarDock? They don't have a lot of credibility.
<Tim-IBM>	Klaus: Possible? Well, anything is. Likely? I'd have to say no.
<Swanee>	Do we have a rule about language here?
<`\\\arvin>	Tim-IBM: I'd also like to see about future job in OS/2 OS development at IBM :) (when i get my P's & Q's crossed and stuff)
<Galileo>	Im prefer Mac extension
<Frogger>	If they screw up, what does that mean for the future of OS/2?
<WarpHoss>	Yup swanee your language is yours....
<Klaus>	Frogger: good question!
<Nenad>	I would like to see a Linux runtime for OS/2
<`\\\arvin>	DA_MAN: really? that would be a bonus.
<Tim-IBM>	Seer: Probably, but unless someone complains (who's got at least basic paid support) it isn't a "life threatening" issue and won't get changed.
<Nenad>	binary compatiblity layer
<Fuzy|ogic>	Stardock has come under fire from all angles. It doesn't seem to hurt their ability to sell software for OS/2 or windows...
<Frogger>	Klaus: I'm kinda worried about it. Brad can be quite a blowhard.
<`\\\arvin>	DA_MAN: You're in Canada? I was told by IBM that export laws get in the way
<Sub0OS2>	re
<Tim-IBM>	Frogger: No, and I would disagree with your characterization.
<Fuzy|ogic>	OS/2 people will buy the client almost no matter what and others who are new to it won't have any concept of Stardock's rep.
<Projects>	'\\\arvin: not to canada
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: If Stardock dosn't do the OS/2 Client, what does that mean for the future of OS/2?
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: another question.. hows IBM's Linux-effort affecting OS/2 ?
<mandie>	we'll continue getting updtes to 4.0
<jjurban>	It's not up to Stardock alone. It's up to all of us.
<Nenad>	I think StarDock took much fire because some thought that they can save home OS/2 users by giving them all possible games and apps thet exist :)
<Fuzy|ogic>	Stardock has to watch their bottom line too...
<mandie>	jjurban: it's up to those that can program for os2 and up to those that can't to provide support to the programmers
<`\\\arvin>	Tim-IBM: As for certifications for OS/2, how can one go for these certifications, and are there classes one can take?
<jjurban>	If only IBM doesn't betray us...
<Tim-IBM>	Frogger: I'm not expecting them to "screw up" at all, but part of why people get paid the big bucks is to worry about all the awful things that could possibly go wrong.
<Tim-IBM>	Frogger: 99% of which have nothing to do with Stardock anyway.
<Swanee>	Klaus: I am counting on it in order to stay in the OS/2 business
<Frogger>	Tim-IBM: OK.
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: would it be possible to give NETLABS the source code of VIA-VOICE to do a os/2 port, if they'd write a contract not to spread the sources?
*	WarpHoss is not playing games he's making a decent living a wants to continue w/out playing "games".
<Fuzy|ogic>	I too want to sell OS/2 software, or at least be knighted for programming it :)
<Dervish>	I'm going to have to go. It was hard to keep track so I lurked. Interesting. I think we're all about on the same side. If someone wants to tell me how to start I'll write my own drivers! This might be heresy - or the lateness of the hour, but the more I think about, the more I think that Win95/98/2000 support out of the box might not be that good an idea - from a marketing point of view. Maybe even Win-OS/2 was a "mistake" (in the long term)
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: same question for other frozen os/2 soft..
<jjurban>	jjurban agrees with Klaus
*	Projects ^5's WarpHoss
<Tim-IBM>	Mandie: That's correct. Warp 4 is a solid, stable release with a steady stream of continued refinements.
<Swanee>	Dervish: Hey! You have to work in an hour or two don't you? :-)
<Dervish>	delay let in Windows 95. With its now much larger product base OS/2 might be ready to go it alone?
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: to your answer about the mptn-bug: that's the same point as always.. We (the os/2-comunity ) found a BUG and we'd LOVE to fix it.. but IBM wants us to PAY for someone inside IBM to fix it ???
<Galileo>	galileo agrees with Klaus
<Tim-IBM>	Marvin: Yes, there are. If you go to www.ibm.com and search on "certification" you should find what you're looking for.
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: if IBM (?) wants the Os/2-community to help themselves there must be a way to incorporate fixes..
<Tim-IBM>	Marvin: I think it's in the www.education.ibm.com section (?)
*	WarpHoss or pressing
<Sub0OS2>	Just fix the memory leak in the MMPM/2 iamge loader and I'd be happy...8')
<Nenad>	Via Voice engine for Linux could be merged with Voice Type front-end from Warp
<Swanee>	Dervish: It's your fault that I made it home for this. You are a dedicated dude!
<Frogger>	Tim-IBM: Well, I certainly want to do everything I can to make Warp 5 a reality and to help the continued existance/growth of OS/2 (under whatever moniker) a reality.
<Fuzy|ogic>	I think the included C dev stuff will give us 'as a community' the power we need.
<mandie>	Sub: don't use it! Use PMView :)
<DA_MAN>	\\\\arvin yeah..i;m in canada ..
<StevenL>	Fuzzy, I wish I believed that.
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: again, would it be possible to give NETLABS the source code of VIA-VOICE to do a os/2 port, if they'd write a contract not to spread the sources?
<Sub0OS2>	mandie: I would if PMView would work for loading wallpaper...8')
<DA_MAN>	i actuallyhave an educational warp4 box besides my desk :0
<`\\\arvin>	Tim-IBM: thanks ;)
<Tim-IBM>	Seer: Well, not exactly. IBM wants you to at least put some money on the table for them to take a look at it. If IBM calls it a defect there's a reimbursement policy in many cases.
<Frogger>	Goodnight. Thanks, Tim. And good luck.
<Galileo>	...I really hate downloading the upgrade and them the fix of the upgrade !!!
<WarpHoss>	Tim_IBM is a blessing to all of us.
<mandie>	Tim: thank you mucho! :)
*	mandie agrees with Warphoss
<Longstaff>	Tim-IBM - i'm looking forward to the july announcement
*	Projects agress with mandie
<`\\\arvin>	Aww yah. Tim just rocks :)
<Swanee>	Tim... Thanks a TON! At least 95% of us really do appreciate you and thank you.
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: it's hard for us to pay >1500 for Warp5-Server and pay extra to fix the bug ,-)
*	Sub0OS2 agree's to agree...8')
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: well.. i don't want IBM to have a look at it.. i know there is a bug and i now how to fix it..
<Tim-IBM>	Klaus: Sorry, missed the first time you asked. You'd have to pass that one by the voice group and see what they say. They just did a Linux beta, so anything is possible, I guess.
<TheSeer>	;)
<mandie>	Tim: you know where to come when you feel friendless :)
<Tim-IBM>	WarpHoss, Mandie: Well, blessing, I don't know. But I like to help out because I enjoy it -- that's the bottom line. This is fun stuff!
<WarpHoss>	Tim_IBM> anytime you need testing even wwith an NDA let me know!!!
<`\\\arvin>	Tim-IBM: Your taking time to speak here makes a big difference!
*	Projects too
<mandie>	ok, I'm going to take off...thanks to all for coming tonight..we appreciate everyone's support :)
<mandie>	nytol :)
<`\\\arvin>	Have a good night mandie
<Tim-IBM>	I especially like it when I can send out announcements with really good news -- and I've been doing that a lot lately.
<Sub0OS2>	Maybe someone has asked this before but has IBM given any thought to opening up some of the sources to Warp?(the ones that don't fall under a legal problem in doing so...)
*	WarpHoss says Tim deserves Lifetime acheivement award for perserverance in OS/2 support.
<Tim-IBM>	Seer: But they obviously have to look at it, if for nothing else than to look at their source code.
<Sub0OS2>	WarpHoss: agreed...8')
<jjurban>	I have to go. Bye all.
<Tim-IBM>	Seer: It's a really basic problem: they have to put SOME rule on this, otherwise everybody would call with a "defect" in the product. (And, no, lack of ViaVoice is NOT a defect! :-))
<Dervish>	Right, I think I'm going to call it a night! Goodnight everyone! :)
<Nenad>	so mid-July, new Comm/2 :)
<Nenad>	hopefully based on Mozilla ;)
<shyguy>	later all
*	Projects still wants opera
<Nenad>	Opera will be late, IMO
*	Abraxas is still logging this session :-)
<Tim-IBM>	WarpHoss: Oh, no need for that. Plan is to have a very public beta if Stardock and IBM can make this work.
<StevenL>	That's OK. Rather have a Warp enabled Mozilla.
<Projects>	prolly will, but it's back in development at last
<Swanee>	Tim-IBM: Do you think the DOJ case has quite a bit of bearing on the client decision at IBM?
<Tim-IBM>	SubOS2: We have to the extent we can, actually. The Device Driver Kit is a case in point.
<`\\\arvin>	Tim-IBM: i got a big huge sticky note on July 14 :P
*	Sector hoeps Abraxas is also editing this session
<Nenad>	public betas are good, but they would need to establish a good reporting procedure
<Tim-IBM>	SubOS2: Check out http://service.boulder.ibm.com/ddk
<WarpHoss>	Where there is a will there will be a way!
<Sub0OS2>	Tim-IBM: ah
<Abraxas>	Sector I thought you were the logfile editor :-)))
<Nenad>	althoguh, Aurora is GA allready and it will have at least one or two fixpaks by that time
<Tim-IBM>	Nah, no need for Opera. :-)
<Sub0OS2>	Tim-IBM: I ment a little deeper than that....as getting into the internals of the WPS code and the kernel of OS/2 itself...
<Projects>	hmmm
<rTheSee>	damn.. re :)
*	DA_MAN takes his hat off to Tim .. may you live long and prosper
<Sub0OS2>	Tim-IBM: and the MMPM/2 and Dive/Dart stuff also for example...8')
<Tim-IBM>	Swanee: No, I don't think so. At most a very indirect bearing on a client decision.
<Klaus>	that's right, the Aurora-Beta was nice too, but only one of my reported bugs was removed .-(
<Nenad>	solving SIQ issue would help a lot for a client
<WarpHoss>	>T_IBM> How about me running a CallCenter for ya?
<Projects>	Tim-IBM: doesn't matter... I prolly have every OS/2 browser ever written anyway :)
<Tim-IBM>	SubOS2: There are problems with releasing OS/2 Warp source code, and not all of them have to do with things in IBM's control.
<WarpHoss>	ther was supposed to be ;-) onthat Tim....
<Swanee>	Tim-IBM: Does the july 14 announcement have the numbers 4 & (5 or 6) in it?
<Nenad>	Projects: you have SpeedSoft Sybil webex component? :))
<Swanee>	:-)
*	Sector doesn't recall ever having the "title" of logfile editor.
<TheSeer>	Nenad: the SIQ-Problem was topic of an earlier Speekup .. if i remember that right the resutl was:
<Longstaff>	Swanee - we may have to, uhh, wait and see :)
<Projects>	Nenad: well, not anymore. I had no use for Sybil 'cause I can't program my way out of a wet paper bag :)
<`\\\arvin>	Swanee: hahahaha
<Tim-IBM>	Swanee: Frankly I haven't been following the MS trial much. I have opinions on it, of course. We do have an interesting relationship with Microsoft.
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: what are non-IBM problems by releasing os/2 sourcecode? still so much mickeysoft code in it?
<TheSeer>	if you know a solution not breaking anything in backwardcompatibiltiy IBM would be happy to pay you a lot of money for that..
<Sub0OS2>	Tim-IBM: right....due to contract with other vendors etc...8')...I'm refering to the stuff that doesn't have that cloud hanging over it...
<Swanee>	Tim-IBM: I figured a new client would be ammo for ms and that may not play well at IBM
<Tim-IBM>	Swanee: Can't say more about July 14th (date subject to change, but hopefully not).
<Projects>	argh! another RSN? :)
<Swanee>	Tim-IBM: hehe, just trying to prod you a bit. :-)
<Fuzy|ogic>	yeah, a new client may say "Look, no monopoly" even though they would be wrong.
<Tim-IBM>	Klaus: Can't say. (Gosh, I hate saying that. :-))
<Nenad>	somehow, I think IBM could release parts of OS/2 code like PM, WPS and Dos* APIs, then use the Linux base for the kernel, file system, networking... and voila! open-source os/2 :)
<Projects>	so don't say it then! :)
*	Sub0OS2 notes that a lot of OS/2 users are going to have a countdown counter on their wall like the sci-fi channel did in it's comercial for StarWars episode 1
<Sub0OS2>	But for this announcement
<Nenad>	but Linux runtime would be better
<Tim-IBM>	SubOS2: Oh, there are many clouds.... :-)
<WarpHoss>	T_IBM> Seems to me IBM needs a Telecom player in their fold... other than At&t... talk to me..
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: it's ok, you said that the 1st time, on CeBit I just heared that on the IBM-Center ,-)
<Swanee>	Sub0OS2: My countdown is for a new client. :-)
<Tim-IBM>	Projects: Hey, 30 days ain't bad!
<Sub0OS2>	Tim-IBM: ic...8')
<Swanee>	WarpHoss: hehe yeah, a telecom and an archiver... talk to me too! :-)
<Projects>	Tim-IBM: shorter than a lot of things I've been waiting for (as in a decent accounting app for OS/2 business users :p)
<Nenad>	Tim: it's getting better, at least... it took 1 year for the first release :)
<Gayland>	\quit
<Tim-IBM>	Projects: Well, I do want everyone checking our web sites on the 14th. At least at 11:59 p.m. Hawaiian time. :-)
<Swanee>	Projects: We can only hope that one appears mysteriously like Maul did.
<TheSeer>	sorry if i repeat.. but i asked for the effect of IBM's Linux-Movment on OS/2..
<TheSeer>	that already been answered á
*	Projects hands Gayland a spare /
<Nenad>	I really hope they did it right this time
*	TheSeer got lost in a ping timeout or something..
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: is there any chance to get the WebExplorer sourcecode? I don't think IBM will sell it anymore ,-)
<Sub0OS2>	Tim-IBM: I think the two biggest things that would be good to make open source in OS/2 would be the PM and the WPS...in that order...if the PM was open sourced apps from other API's for be supported easily by a port by including theXlib api's and the like...
<Tim-IBM>	WarpHoss: I missed something (?)
<Projects>	Swanee: yeah, how did that sneak past the masses anyway? Looks interesting...
<Swanee>	Gayland: use the other slash :-)
<WarpHoss>	T_IBM> yup and so did IBM.
<TheSeer>	Sub0OS2: if i rembeer correct, PM is copyright M$
<Tim-IBM>	Klaus: Hmmm... Not sure.
<Sub0OS2>	TheSeer: ah....then we would replace it...
<Nenad>	why would you need WebEx source? you have Mozilla source
<Sub0OS2>	TheSeer: clone the api's and move on to another...
<TheSeer>	Sub0OS2: guess why the pm is so buggy ,-)
<Sub0OS2>	TheSeer: like Samba was done
<Swanee>	Projects: I oped you and left. You're the KING baby!!!
<Swanee>	gsahca!!!
<Projects>	Swanne: do a /who voiceops :)
<Klaus>	Nenad: WebEx is incedibly fast and compact! and has a beautiful rendering engine!
<Tim-IBM>	WarpHoss: This isn't exactly the most easily managed way to talk, but it's fun. :-)
<Nenad>	Klaus: Lynx is even faster :)
<Projects>	Klaus: not to mention the fun animations that I really miss on other browsers...
<Swanee>	Projects: null?
<Klaus>	Nenad: but I prefer the WebEx rendering engine ,-)
<Swanee>	:-)
<Klaus>	Projects: right ,-)
<TheSeer>	Klaus: but WebEx is not capable of the latest stuff in html and javascript..
<Projects>	Swanee: no point in being there :)
<Nenad>	Klaus: use MS IE for animations ;)
<Tim-IBM>	Klaus: It is a bit dated at this point, I'm afraid. :-(
<WarpHoss>	agreed> T_IBM> but it can be even more....
<Swanee>	How could Abraxas go away when he was asleep?
<TheSeer>	Klaus: and idoubt it'll be faster to enhance the webEX then porting an exisiting NS..
<Klaus>	TheSeer: that's why i want the sourcecode from tim ,-)
<Tim-IBM>	Folks, t-minus 5 minutes... I'll have to depart in a few...
<Projects>	Webex animations work in IE???
<Nenad>	WebEx.dll would be nice, someone could incorporate mozilla code there!
<Longstaff>	Tim-IBM - in july we should let you make a longer announcment at the start before we open the floor for questions
*	Klaus knows people who would add frame support...
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: i'd like to thank you for your supoort (no, i'm *not* a voice offical ;-) )
<Nenad>	hey, Tim, how about Apache for OS/2 from IBM? will it be multithreaded, will it have LGW compatibiltiy module or even GoServe as LGW did? :)
<Tim-IBM>	I'm not on the #voice schedule at this point (except for today, as a last minute "surprise"). I'd like to reserve my next appearance for something REALLY big if I can.
*	WarpHoss say thanks and pleeeease contact me Tim_IBM
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: i promise not to.. well.. at leat i'll try not to anoy you with questions..
<Swanee>	Tim-IBM: You know... your name was one of the first names I associated with OS/2 when I started using it in 95 (I think). I am glad you are still here.
<Klaus>	Tim-IBM: thanks for spending the time with us... now it would be nice if you could send all os/2 related sources to us ,-))))
<`\\\arvin>	hahaha
<Projects>	Tim-IBM: you're welcome to join us any time though...
<Nenad>	Tim: something big? hmmm... what might that be?
<TheSeer>	Nenad: apache 2.0 will be multithreaded .. and there's aport of pthreads for os/2..
<TheSeer>	you just need to compile it :)
<Sub0OS2>	Tim-IBM: you da man...thanx for supporting warpers like us...
<Tim-IBM>	Nenad: Well, as you know you can get Apache for OS/2. I think what you're talking about is the Apache-based IBM HTTP Server. Subscribe to Software Choice -- enhancements come when they're ready.
<Nenad>	TheSeer: I wonder about IBM version
*	DA_MAN thnks he is not worthy..and hands over his nick to TIm-IBM ..cuz Tim is DA_MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: IBM has to release modifications to apache to the public
<Nenad>	Tim-IBM: I don't like Apache because it's not multithreaded, but I hope IBM's "powered by Apache" will be
<Galileo>	...TCP/ip 4.1 had so many updates that the installer should be updated..... http://en.OS2.org/software/updates/Server05.php3
<Tim-IBM>	Seer: Yes, I believe that's how it works.
<TheSeer>	Galileo: what update ?
<TheSeer>	Galileo: i can update it right away ;)
*	Sub0OS2 notes that IBM's apache code is a great thing...
<Tim-IBM>	I should tell you that Domino Go with WebSphere is excellent, though.
<Sub0OS2>	Corporate supported open source is a great concept
<Tim-IBM>	But as they become ready, more and more platforms will enjoy IBM HTTP Server.
<Tim-IBM>	(Still have OS/390, OS/2, and I believe OS/400 to do.)
<Longstaff>	Tim-IBM - how can i get websphere for os/2?
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: how about IBM and opensource ? e.g. IBM is on the Linux-track now.. they use GPL-stuff and give it back to the people..
<Tim-IBM>	Longstaff: Easy! Get Warp Server for e-business.
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: will this happen to OS/2-stuff too ?
<`\\\arvin>	But going opensource will mean a loss of profits for sure!
<Nenad>	so, LGW is really dying... :(
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: like, will IBM incorporate stuff a non-ibm-coder created ??
<Tim-IBM>	Seer: Hard to say, and some people even smarter than I am are wrestling with that.
<Longstaff>	thanx Tim - i was looking for info on that on ibm.com
<Nenad>	arvin: IBM sells services, software is only there to bring the customers in ;)
<TheSeer>	Tim-IBM: well.. i see no sence in enhancing stuff and IBM refuses to use it ;)
<Tim-IBM>	Seer: Always have! Gosh, OS/2 1.0 included non-IBM coded technologies!
<Klaus>	we're paying for IBM-Suport, not for the code ,-) so OpenSource should not be too bad for IBM
<TheSeer>	ah.. ok..
<Tim-IBM>	Seer: That's what's great about it -- a good mix of technologies.
<TheSeer>	so there might be some interest inside IBM for a webbased setup ? *g*
*	TheSeer hopes for some support since he can't find any documatition on a damn lot of config-files..
<Nenad>	like that firewall confing utility that Ltning made
<Galileo>	Tim-IBM, what do you exactly do on OS/2 ???
<TheSeer>	guess i can announce it here ;)
<Tim-IBM>	Well, good night everybody! Thanks for the pounding. :-)
*	WarpHoss invites Tim_IBM to Rural Hall and has to leave to get up at 4amEDST
<TheSeer>	We (some people and i ;) ) started a new project, a webbased Setup for OS/2
<Longstaff>	goodnight Tim-IBM
<Sub0OS2>	Tim-IBM: have a great night....
<TheSeer>	setup = configuration