SpeakUp with Lynn Maxson from 08/28/99. Topic: "Know the Enemy"

*	** WarpHoss changed topic to Speakup w/Lynn Maxson "Know the Enemy" ... In Progress. ***
<lmaxson>	Finger heating keyboard.
<Abraxas>	lmaxson I think your keyboard is already warmed up :-)
<lmaxson>	Thank heaven it's a PS/2 keyboard.
<lmaxson>	I like the sound of it talking back to me.
<Abraxas>	me, too ....
<lmaxson>	Yes, another item of IBM added value lost in a commodity market.
<lmaxson>	You can't get them from IBM anymore. At least you can still purchase OS/2.
<Abraxas>	I found mine at a second hand store a few weeks ago ... best $10.00 I ever spent
<lmaxson>	I'm buying them for $3 a pop.
<lmaxson>	But even at $50 they would be a bargain.
<lmaxson>	I have all APL keycaps installed.
*	Sector thought lmaxson always spent more for stuffù *
<madodel>	OS/2 what's that? Does it run on windoze?
<StevenL>	I should've known. APL, PL/I, true Blue. :)
<lmaxson>	A better Windows than Windows once. Let's return to days of yore tomorrow.
<lmaxson>	This time we will add a better Linux than Linux.
<lmaxson>	StevenL, is beginning to understand the secret of my confidence.
<lmaxson>	Is this a proper warm-up period?
<Abraxas>	Yes ... I think we can start, now ..... others will catch up when they join in
<lmaxson>	I don't see my bus driver from Alaska.
<Abraxas>	VOICE would like to welcome Lynn Maxson to this speacial Saturday Speakup
<madodel>	Let's get the show on the road, the Warpicity User in action. :-)
<lmaxson>	Am I supposed to say thank you?
<madodel>	Are you considering taking a bus to Alaska?
<TheSeer>
<Abraxas>	Lynn, you can say whatever you'd like :-)
<lmaxson>	May I also say the unending respect I have for the unselfish nature of the VOICE staff.
<Abraxas>	Thank you
<lmaxson>	No, I have an advocate who is a bus driver in Alaska.
<lmaxson>	Can have a show of hands of those who read the article.
*	Abraxas did *
<lmaxson>	I thought so.
<John>	scanned it
*	Ironhead hi lmaxson *
*	WarpHoss raises his hand. *
<madodel>	I was forced to read it. :-)
<lmaxson>	DaveW is still in the process of reading it.
<lmaxson>	We will count him as one vote.
<Abraxas>	http://www.os2voice.org/VNL/past_issues/VNL0899H/vnewsf2.htm (for anyone who wants to read it now)
<dervish>	There's some joke in there somewhere... something like "I'm taking a bus through Canada.
<madodel>	Will there be a pop quiz?
<lmaxson>	This is going to be a fun chat session.
<lmaxson>	Still no announced flamers.
<lmaxson>	That's a little disappointing.
<DaveW>	we are not the enemy
<madodel>	Would you like me to flame you to make you feel at home?
<lmaxson>	Could I ask for opinions on the jist of the article?
<lmaxson>	Hey, JoSt.
<WarpHoss>	we are not the enemy \\\ Me thinks you need to re-read the article then.
<DaveW>	i think you OVER estimate our capabilitiez
<lmaxson>	A shot across the bow, WarpHoss.
<WarpHoss>	No offense intended DaveW.
<lmaxson>	I think yours combined with mine and the others will do it.
<lmaxson>	We are still too polite here.
<lmaxson>	This is an open discussion.
<lmaxson>	I worked hard to practice egoless programming.
<John>	So how many folks do you expect to get $20 from?
<lmaxson>	I would hope to transfer it to here.
<John>	What will you use the money for?
<John>	Do you intend to incorporate?
<lmaxson>	John, you see there's the rub.
<lmaxson>	I don't want the money.
<lmaxson>	I want someplace to send my $20 to.
<lmaxson>	If 50,000 of us do it, we have a million dollars to decide how best to invest.
<John>	So, how many folks do you expect to send $20 somewhere.
<Ironhead>	so should it be what will we spend our $20 on?
<John>	oops!
*	Abraxas notes that sometimes a good discussion can get a bit heated ...and hopes that nobody takes offense, personally. It's too easy, in IRC, to just leave without explanation when offended, and that is actually counterproductive to the discussion *
<lmaxson>	I have not intention of offending anyone.
<lmaxson>	not -> no
<WarpHoss>	So think then in terms of an organization and what it would need to insure your participation. That is the subject of the session.
<John>	38,000 folks requested drivers from IBM
<lmaxson>	WarpHoss, yes.
<lmaxson>	John, IBM was non-responsive.
<lmaxson>	I do not propose any such organization.
<lmaxson>	If 38,000 out of 50,000 vote for a device driver, then that's what will get done.
<John>	Suppose we got $50,000. What would we do with it?
<lmaxson>	It's called direct democracy.
<lmaxson>	We could do whatever $50,000 will do.
<DaveW>	which isn't much, right?
<John>	There are options:
<John>	1.Advertise OS/2
<lmaxson>	It's hard to say it isn't much.
<John>	2. Develop OS/2 products
<John>	3. Sue IBM
<John>	4. Sue Microsoft
<MADvirc>	IBM claims they have USB drivers for OS/2. They do so long as you have an Intel/Via chipset. When I asked them to sadd support for Ali and others, they said they were only paid to do Intel. So we could perhaps pay IBM to write the drivers they should be writing for their own OS.
<John>	5. Sue them both.
<John>	What's Ali?
<John>	6. Pay IBM for drivers?
<lmaxson>	MAD, that's one choice.
<DaveW>	ali is chip set brand
<lmaxson>	John, why not?
<MADvirc>	A pc chipset manufacturer, like Sis, Via, and intel
<lmaxson>	Business is business.
<John>	Why not what?
<Abraxas>	Another example is V.90 support for the OS/2 Lucent Modem Drivers
<lmaxson>	Why not pay IBM?
*	** fooser is joining channel #voice ***
<lmaxson>	Why not have vendors compete for the money?
<Abraxas>	I know that the developer, if he did add the V.90 support, would not be paid by either IBM or Lucent to do the OS/2 driver
<John>	$50,000 wouldn't go far paying IBM.
<lmaxson>	John, what's the issue here?
<MADvirc>	We could perhaps take them to a small lunch for that
<John>	I'm trying to see what the options are.
<lmaxson>	That we do not have enough interest in the community or that our numbers even if interested are not significant enough.
<MADvirc>	Seems to be a combination, doesn't it?
<lmaxson>	If we do not have sufficient numbers nor financial resources, then how can we fault IBM for its decision?
<DaveW>	lynn's article ("KTE") said we're diverse, fragmented, divided
<Abraxas>	lmaxson excellent point!
<lmaxson>	The real question is how many are we and how can we get an answer.
<John>	What's the best estimate for the total number of involved OS/2 users?
<lmaxson>	I would estimate something under a million worldwide.
<John>	Catch 22 - IBM's decisions led to reduced OS/2 users.
<MADvirc>	something is a wide fudge factor
<John>	How many in the US?
<lmaxson>	I have no idea.
<lmaxson>	I based my budget on 50,000 contributing #20/year.
<StevenL>	Lynn, is your count user's who choose to use Warp?
<DaveW>	not counting ATMs?
<WarpHoss>	DaveW > We allow those truths to get in the way of progress on the crucial point.
<John>	I just sold a product yesterday to an OS/2 user. I've never seen him on any of the web sites or URLs I normally visit.
<lmaxson>	StevenL, I will accept, rather we should accept, anyone who seeks a better product and independence from vendor fickleness.
<MADvirc>	John: then how does he survive with OS/2?
<StevenL>	Lynn, I'm just trying to convert 1M to numbers that would actually contribute.
<John>	I don't know, but he said he was "ecstatic" that we had developed this OS/2 product.
<John>	He's an Asst. Professor in a well-known southern university.
<lmaxson>	StevenL, I think it is like PBS, you cannot expect more that 6 to 16% to actually pay up.
<StevenL>	Lynn, that's reasonable.
<lmaxson>	They love to complain, but they are unwilling to eliminate the source.
<John>	People will "pay up" if they can reasonably expect to get something.
<lmaxson>	The 50,000 then is a conservative number.
<StevenL>	Lynn, I'm trying to estimate the number of the 1M that are countable as users.
<lmaxson>	Then we have to decide whether its $20, 40, 60, or 100/year.
<John>	I'll make an offer - as an OS/2 developer corporation, I'll pay $100 for "Corporate Membership."
<MADvirc>	The OS/2 community has been burned by promises in the past (Can any one say Accountingware?) They don't want to bet on a gamble.
<lmaxson>	StevenL, I tried to do an estimate exluding the "large" OS/2 users.
<lmaxson>	We keep forgetting that almost 90% of all OS/2 copies sold went to "large" accounts.
<John>	Why can't we get the large OS/2 users to join us?
<lmaxson>	John, we can.
<StevenL>	John, they don't need to.
<John>	Aren't they invested in OS/2 as we are?
<StevenL>	John, they have their own methods to get what they need from IBM.
<DaveW>	no, they aren't
<John>	Don't they want to see OS/2 survive as we do?
<StevenL>	John, it's business for them...
<lmaxson>	StevenL, if you look at the Warpicity proposal, we have eliminated the software use license, thus unlimited copying is supported. That's a tremendous savings to large users.
<Abraxas>	StevenL I think they would join us if it proved cost-effective for them .... right now, the large users pay IBM to write a driver they need
<StevenL>	They will use OS/2 as long as there is a business case for it.
<John>	The business case is: Windows
<StevenL>	Abroxas, $30K is a lot for us. For a large corp. it the cost of a meeting or two.
<DaveW>	everybody plans to invest in regular upgrades anyway
<lmaxson>	StevenL, I am proposing that "we" take IBM's large OS/2 users from them. That will bring them to the negotiating table.
<DaveW>	which upgrade is based on apps
<John>	I think we should find out who some of these large users are and try to contact them.
<lmaxson>	$30K is a lot to us individually, not to a group of 50,000.
<StevenL>	DaveW, large corp's buy based on 5/10 year plans and try to minimize upgrades.
<StevenL>	Lynn, so true.
<John>	We are making assumptions about what they are, what they need, how they deal with IBM, etc. Perhaps they are just as concerned as we are. But how will we know unless we talk with them?
<lmaxson>	The real issue is building our finacial clout.
<lmaxson>	finacial -> financial
<DaveW>	and a track record for delivering something they need
<madodel>	Large corporations have clout with IBM above their investment in OS/2
<StevenL>	True. At $30K/driver we can build 30/year worst case.
<lmaxson>	There is not reason to feel helpless individually if we gain strength in our numbers.
<lmaxson>	Thus with small numbers you can do large things.
<John>	$30K buys 1 driver. It can also hire 1 good lawyer.
<DaveW>	one good lawyer for a few weeks
<John>	Tell me to shut up whenever you want.
<StevenL>	John, are you guaranteed at win? For $30K, I'm almost 100% sure of a working driver.
<lmaxson>	John, for the moment let's discuss how we arrive at decision making.
<lmaxson>	There is no need to shut up as much as we have a need to focus on key items.
<John>	Yes, we are. IBM defrauded us. The negative publicty alone would cause them to take notice.
<DaveW>	not a chance
<lmaxson>	If we are agreed on the need for an organization, then we can put that part of the discussion behind us.
<John>	Key issue: what do we do first? Is it the concensus that we buy stuff like drivers?
<lmaxson>	No, John, first there must be a "we".
<lmaxson>	There is no "we" today.
<lmaxson>	We have no means, for example, to support Netlabs.
<WarpHoss>	The organization is needed. What does that organization need to have to ensure as large a group of participnats as possible.?
<DaveW>	decide if we need to do something first, then decide what to do
<WarpHoss>	Active participants I might add.
<John>	Disagree, before the "we" we need the objective. Otherwise, we won't get the "we." But if the objective is sound, we'll get the members.
<DaveW>	checkmate
<Abraxas>	John has a good point
<lmaxson>	The objective is to insure our OS/2 investment well into the future.
<StevenL>	Exactly.
<lmaxson>	That's what we are trying to protect.
<lmaxson>	We've made the investment. We want to see it grow and prosper.
<lmaxson>	It's a business decision.
<RS-23>	But, it may be hard to convince someone who's looking for a particular piece of software to join the effort if it appears the "we" is concentrating on device drivers.
<John>	But IBM wants to end OS/2's future.
<lmaxson>	RS-23, that's why I proposed a direct democracy.
<lmaxson>	John, screw IBM.
<StevenL>	RS-23, it's too early to even say that's what we are concentrating on.
<lmaxson>	Forget IBM for the moment.
<John>	If we buy a driver, they'll take the money, then continue to make statements like "OS/2 isn't maintained due to the strength of Windows"
<lmaxson>	IBM and OS/2 doesn't mix on our level.
<John>	We can't forget IBM.
<lmaxson>	John, you worry too much about what IBM says as opposed to what you can do.
<lmaxson>	Together we can tell IBM to kiss off or on.
<lmaxson>	Then it becomes both our choices.
<StevenL>	John, sure we can. Let's do it and see what the results of thinking it through produces.
<lmaxson>	The point is to keep our ability to choose open.
<John>	Bull, I just lost a sale because someone in the customer's quoted Steven Mills.
<Abraxas>	Another point is to not put a cap or limit on what we, as a group, can accomplish
<lmaxson>	We cannot depend upon IBM for OS/2 support into the future.
<lmaxson>	No argument.
<John>	What can I do, or what can we do to counter statements like that.
<lmaxson>	The argument then becomes what other options do we have?
<lmaxson>	We don't have to counter them with anything other than our success.
<WarpHoss>	abraxas> I agree.
<John>	So far, all we've said is "buy drivers." Is there anything else?
<lmaxson>	Our biggest task right now is retaining existing SOHO users.
<lmaxson>	We basically have no limit.
<lmaxson>	What we do not have is unity of purpose.
<lmaxson>	A unity in which we make the decisions. They are not made for us.
<RS-23>	Those SOHO users is where the aforementioned accounting program comes in. That's the only think preventing me from using only OS/2 at the office.
<John>	Unity of purpose - if 50,000 users sue IBM - that's unity of purpose.
<Abraxas>	OK, so now we have drivers and accounting software
<lmaxson>	You see even in accounting we have options.
<DaveW>	seems like an important requirement would be gettint license for os2
<DaveW>	maybe even making it public.
<DaveW>	no chance?
<lmaxson>	If you have a purchased copy of OS/2, you have a license.
<DaveW>	use only
<DaveW>	need to mod
<lmaxson>	I've been through this before.
<Abraxas>	DaveW Ohh ... there's a chance ... IBM will license OS/2 to anyone who can pay for it .... making it public is another story, though
<lmaxson>	We can do the same thing with fixpacks of our own that IBM does currently.
<lmaxson>	We don't need it public. We don't need IBM.
<lmaxson>	It's continuing to believe in that need that lies at the root of our inaction.
<DaveW>	red hat and caldera have expanded linux by selling a bundle that makes it useful and easy
<DaveW>	warp has good core, but you need to add a bunch of stuff to make it as useful as other systems
<John>	How can you say we don't need IBM?
<DaveW>	offering a bundle could make it competitive
<Abraxas>	lmaxson true ... as an example, look at what Daniella Engert has done with the IDE Driver
<lmaxson>	Yes, and the open software movement is finding it's losing influence in the very product they proclaim.
<DaveW>	seems to be growing
<lmaxson>	We don't have to make it competitive. We just have to keep it alive for our purposes.
<John>	What we need more than anything is PR - positive for OS/2.
<lmaxson>	Even if we do not attract a single new user.
<RS-23>	lmaxson...would this possibly be something the "we" paid to have developed for use only by members of the "we"?
<DaveW>	expo and warpstock are pr extravaganzas
<lmaxson>	RS-23, that lies in the original Warpicity proposal made at WarpStock98.
<RS-23>	But do the media get worked up over expo and warpstock
<lmaxson>	At $20/year we can afford to give it away.
<John>	I wonder how many folks outside of OS/2 will even have heard of Warpstock or WEW?
<RS-23>	I've e-mailed a few people. :-)
<lmaxson>	How many other folks do you need, John?
<John>	10-20% of the PC users.
<lmaxson>	I have never based my numbers on anything other than estimates of existing licensed OS/2 users.
<lmaxson>	They are more than sufficient, if correct, for our purposes.
<Ironhead>	John: What % of pc-users choose there os?
<lmaxson>	We cannot talk "our" purpose if there is no "our".
<lmaxson>	We must first be a "we".
<dervish>	Hm, what is our of purpose... What do we all want? Aside from large corporations... On the desktop...What is the typical OS/2 user?. If that's too hard, what is the least typical OS/2 user? My guess is that the second is close to the most typical Windoze user. I find that I can easily convince individuals that OS/2 is better product.. they are worried about support and applications. They are not techy enough to see solutions other than the heavily marketed one
<lmaxson>	Now we are halfway through this speakup without a consensus on this point.
<RS-23>	lmaxson: I'd like to be a "we".
<WarpHoss>	What's it gonna take for any of us to be a "we"?
<lmaxson>	Then a proposal that initiated this speakup was made by Eric Henshaw that we set up an escrow account for a given period to determine interests with it being open what we do with the monies in case it was insufficient.
<lmaxson>	We put money in and count noses.
<lmaxson>	That brings us face to face with reality.
<lmaxson>	It might help us understand IBM and Stardock better.
<lmaxson>	It would certainly help us understand ourselves on these two issues.
<lmaxson>	Does an escrow account have the proper assurances for everyone?
<lmaxson>	Have we lost a connection?
<lmaxson>	Does an escrow account make sense?
<WarpHoss>	No.
<John>	I'd say that we should involve the press in whatever we do.
<WarpHoss>	we have not lost connection that is..
<RS-23>	If we're only talking 20 dollars (32 CDN), that's probably less than many people guzzle at the tavern in an evening.
<lmaxson>	Whew, you had me worried there, WarpHoss.
<lmaxson>	It's a piddly, noise level amount.
<RS-23>	John: Good idea for the press. They jumped on linux quickly. Maybe they'd go for this.
<Ironhead>	What would be the time frame?
<lmaxson>	Oddly enough it's the minimal asked by public radio and tv stations with poor results.
<John>	Like, suppose we only can get about $500. What could we spend it on that would get the press's attention?
<lmaxson>	Pick a time frame. I would think at least a year of formenting support.
<lmaxson>	John, you are one step ahead.
<RS-23>	John: Hire somebody to throw pies at Bill Gates? :-)
<John>	Gates' pie-in-the-face got a lot of press.
<lmaxson>	If we can only get $500, then we can contribute it to the Bill Gates Foundation for the needy.
<lmaxson>	If we can only get $500 or $5000, then we have answered a question for ourselves.
<lmaxson>	Maybe IBM was correct in recommending we switch to Windows.
<lmaxson>	It's a matter of dealing with reality.
<lmaxson>	Maybe IBM knows more about us than we do it.
<John>	I bet if we established an "IBM executive pie-in-the-face" account, we'd get tens of thousands.
<WarpHoss>	> There is a need for the organization. 2> The organization's Aspiration is to insure our investment in OS/2. \\\ The how's can come latre.
<lmaxson>	John, if we did, we would have tossed the perfect pie.
<WarpHoss>	Is that where we are now in this talk or am Lost?
<lmaxson>	IBM, believe me, can deal with changing reality.
<lmaxson>	We can change their reality.
<lmaxson>	With those numbers.
<dervish>	Getting the attention of the press is hard. They don't like man bites dog stories whatever people say. They like dog bites man stories. They are comforting and have a sense of reality about them. Man bites dog stories are end of the news time fillers. OS/2 takes on IBM is man bites dog - interesting but so what? How do we turn it around so that the press say Hey! That's a dog bites man story!
<RS-23>	Maybe with the seemingly growing dissatisfaction with the pervasive M$ product, the time is near.
<lmaxson>	WarpHoss, I think we are there. Perhaps we had better post it so the nay votes can get counted.
<lmaxson>	Is there anyone who thinks that organizing the community into a legal body does not make sense?
<lmaxson>	I'm looking for a no vote, along with a reason.
<John>	Looks like there are no no's
<lmaxson>	Otherwise who will vote for VOICE to align with either POSSI or SCOUG or user groups in general to open an escrow account for this purpose?
<DaveW>	it does not make sense, but it might be fun
<lmaxson>	It doesn' make sense? Elaborate.
<John>	Not POSSI or SCOUG only. There must be seats for all UGs.
<DaveW>	there is no reasonable expectation for success
<RS-23>	There probably was no reasonable expectation for the success of linux either.
<lmaxson>	Again elaborate. John, it's non-exclusive.
<lmaxson>	An independent escrow account from which we get to see a measure of ourselves.
<Ironhead>	should the orginization not be set up with the creation of the escrow?
<lmaxson>	An association of UGs?
<DaveW>	you assume a rag-tag band of zealots will cause improvements in a huge software system that will cause it's useful lifetime to be extended
<John>	Why an escrow? Why not sell stock?
<lmaxson>	It's a legal thing.
<DaveW>	like linux in '93, slim chance
<lmaxson>	Linux still hasn't succeeded on its own.
<DaveW>	there ya go
<John>	rag-tag bands of zealots have moved mountains throughout history.
<WarpHoss>	DaveW > valid points.
<lmaxson>	Witness how eagerly the distributors accept closed source support and see to use IPOs to gain funds.
<DaveW>	they have more often been squashed like bugs
<John>	We've already been squashed - can't be squashed any more.
<lmaxson>	John, an escrow account, something being held in trust and not spent, was suggested.
<lmaxson>	We have not been squashed by a long shot.
<DaveW>	kicked into a corner, maybe...
<lmaxson>	I will guarantee you the Warpicity methodology.
<lmaxson>	John, I am a consultant, contractor, whatever.
<John>	OS/2 developer == squashed
<lmaxson>	I use OS/2 in nearly all my contracts.
<lmaxson>	I am an OS/2 developer.
<lmaxson>	I am even in the IBM Premier Developer Connection rarified atmosphere.
<John>	I can't be squashed any more, I'm already flat.
<lmaxson>	I only develop for OS/2.
<John>	gotta pee, back in a minute.
<lmaxson>	The escrow account is independent of all this.
<lmaxson>	It's the simplest means we have of measuring our strength.
<lmaxson>	Maybe Dave is right or wrong.
<DaveW>	probably, one or the other
<lmaxson>	Or both.
<John>	Why don't we have both - escrow AND stock.
<DaveW>	and i didn't say we shouldn't do it, just that we shouldn't expect too much from it
<Abraxas>	I think we'd need to outline some basics before we could ask people to contribute to the Escrow Account ... such as what it's for, how (and when) it will be spent and what will happen to it (the $$$) if the project fails to garner enough support.
<lmaxson>	Do we want VOICE, which is the most unified source at the moment, to initiate this?
<DaveW>	we need a prospectus
<lmaxson>	Abraxas, you are correct.
<lmaxson>	First things first.
<lmaxson>	Given an escrow account, then what?
<John>	Stockholders elect directors. Directors determine what to do with other funds.
<lmaxson>	Fine, Dave, let's work on a prospectus.
<lmaxson>	John, I am proposing a direct democracy, no directors, a board of the whole.
<DaveW>	we gotta have it ready before sep 18
<lmaxson>	We are offering a subscription, not stock.
<lmaxson>	A subscription is renewable, not one time purchase.
<DaveW>	we can solicit at expo
<Ironhead>	lmaxson: needs some form of order. Say to accept proposals
<RS-23>	I think the idea is good. I'll check to see what happens. Now, I have to fire up that M$ product to do some bookkeeping.
<lmaxson>	I will make it part of my presentation at WEW and WarpStock99.
*	** RS-23 is leaving channel #voice ***
<WarpHoss>	I need plane fare ....
<DaveW>	see if we can get a warpicity channel
<lmaxson>	Any contributions, ideas, are welcomed.
<DaveW>	have regualr irc meetings
<DaveW>	and a mail list
<lmaxson>	$325 is what I paid out of LAX.
<Abraxas>	Obviously, I need to check with the rest of the VOICE Board of Directors ... but I'm inclined to agree to having VOICE part of the effort to spearhead this project
<DaveW>	anybody can offer a list server?
<lmaxson>	Dave, you should move to Chats-worth.
<WarpHoss>	Naah, Chatsfjiord.
<lmaxson>	I don't want to overwhelm VOICE as the user groups are more action oriented.
<lmaxson>	Maybe we can offer it as a means of unifying the user groups.
<DaveW>	if you're going to organize a "direct democracy" communications is essential
<Abraxas>	I'd like to see VOICE work with any and all interested groups on this project
<John>	How many people belong to VOICE?
<lmaxson>	Dave, it's worth a speakup on its own.
<Abraxas>	John 137
<lmaxson>	Sounds like scripture.
<WarpHoss>	The most essential element in my mind besides leadership is communication.
<lmaxson>	Communication is important.
<John>	I'm not a VOICE member. Could only afford 1 OS/2 group. Joined POSSI.
<lmaxson>	I assume, John, that many others face the same financial dilemma.
<DaveW>	way more than 137 benefit from voice
<WarpHoss>	The Aspiration is a done deal then? ----->The organization's Aspiration is to insure our investment in OS/2.
<DaveW>	...thanks to their communications
<lmaxson>	Just like public radio stations.
<DaveW>	but with no government intervention
<John>	John:137 "And the sky darkened and I saw the Beast coming out of the sea, and it wore a crown with the words 'Windows.' And the Beast was terrible to behold."
<lmaxson>	WarpHoss is pure business, thank yo.
<lmaxson>	yo -> you.
<Abraxas>	DaveW and thanks to the members who make it possible for us to continue to try and help ALL OS/2 users
<WarpHoss>	yo is acceptable.
<lmaxson>	We'll bring John in for comedic relief.
<John>	I'll join VOICE at Warpstock.
<dervish>	John I think that's Revelation (of John) 13 7 but close
<Abraxas>	John good enough ... I'll be looking for you :-)
<DaveW>	on Sat morns 8am PDT #SCOUG we discuss warpicity and other Warp Systems issues
<DaveW>
<lmaxson>	I'm going to invest in SpellGuard.
<lmaxson>	Neither VOICE, POSSI, nor SCOUG have a membership that extrapolates into the numbers we require. I, in fact, belong to all three.
<lmaxson>	Look, unless we extend this speakup, we have half an hour left.
<DaveW>	we've never stopped ontime before...
<WarpHoss>	I still want a vote on the aspiration. and lmaxson's math is correct.
<Abraxas>	lmaxson We have no time imit on Speakups
<Abraxas>	Limit, even
<DaveW>	some of us have other obligations
<lmaxson>	I have one that has me out of here by 1:30 my time (PDT).
<Abraxas>	DaveW Of course ... I just meant to say that the channel is open for use as long as needed
<lmaxson>	She is a little unforgiving on these matters.
<Sector>	Unless our illustrious speaker has to depart we should be able to continue
<lmaxson>	Let's assume that we agree on the escrow account, that VOICE will seek assistance from user groups in setting it up, then we need to talk about decision making.
<lmaxson>	Your illustrious speaker has plenty of time.
<lmaxson>	At times you have to leave your OS/2 concerns.
<John>	I hope VOICE will make a real, active effort to get in touch with other user groups. I know our Pittsburgh group is languishing.
<lmaxson>	What is happening to us with OS/2 is happening in other areas as well.
<Abraxas>	John we will make every effort to contact as many groups as possible
<lmaxson>	We can spread our success in such a joint venture with OS/2 into the more general areas.
<lmaxson>	If we make direct democracy a working reality, we will shake every legislative and excutive body to its core.
<Abraxas>	The Bay Are OS/2 User Group is currently being disbanded .. but there is a mailing being setup for those former members to keep in touch ... I'll make sure and join that list, also
<lmaxson>	It means a return of power to the people.
<lmaxson>	Once again VOICE volunteers are at the ready.
<lmaxson>	Appreciate this organization.
<WarpHoss>	Sned me the address and rest assured they will get mail.
<lmaxson>	Urbaniak?
<John>	Yo imit sned?
<lmaxson>	Don't lose me here.
<DaveW>	i new whut hee ment
<lmaxson>	Spellguard won't help me in this group.
<John>	Couldn't help myself. Sorry.
<lmaxson>	We have lot's of life in these bodies.
<lmaxson>	It's time we turned the tables on our adversaries.
<lmaxson>	Real or imagined.
<dervish>	Or virtual
<lmaxson>	I haven't lost any of my fight since leaving IBM.
<lmaxson>	Virtual as well.
<lmaxson>	Or is that just my imagination?
<lmaxson>	The choice is ours.
<lmaxson>	Almost regardless of number.
<lmaxson>	But it is an "our" thing.
<lmaxson>	We are not alone.
<lmaxson>	We need to make that part of our thinking.
<lmaxson>	If I am not helpless, then you are not.
<lmaxson>	That's a positive aspect of any "we" thing.
<John>	Sorry, I keep sending to the wrong person, that was for lmaxson.
<lmaxson>	It gets away from "wee" early on.
<lmaxson>	Does anyone want to discuss voting mechanisms?
<Ironhead>	yes
<lmaxson>	The internet promises the greatest opportunity to make democracy work than any previous technology.
*	WarpHoss has noted no arguments The Aspiration is set. "Insure our Investment in OS/2." *
*	Sector agrees *
<lmaxson>	The internet promises to relieve us of the burden of representative government.
<Ironhead>	how to setup agendas for descusion and formulate a concenses to be put to a vote?
<lmaxson>	It's a burden any time any one of them votes his conscience.
<lmaxson>	Yes, Ironhead.
<lmaxson>	All it takes is one website and one communicator (a person).
<John>	Insure or ensure? Not to quibble.
<Ironhead>	what is the propasl. reg meetings?
<lmaxson>	John, either works.
<DaveW>	so one of the first expenditures should be registering a domain and renting a server
<lmaxson>	Ironhead, no regular meetings, just one continuous session much on the order of these chat sessions, say on #os/2 or #os/2warp.
<WarpHoss>	Insure or ensure? Not to quibble. \\\ Both are implied by the one I think.
<fooser77>	I wonder what could be going thru Plato's head at this moment.
<Projects>	worms?
<John>	WHy Plato?
<lmaxson>	Dave, if SCOUG won't, I will offer that.
<Abraxas>	DaveW assuming we have no funds to work with, yet, one of the is1 concerns should be communication
<WarpHoss>	Demosthenes.
<lmaxson>	The real need is for a skilled communicator.
<DaveW>	scoug might offer hosting, but not domain name.
<DaveW>	probably want domain name independent of any one club
<Abraxas>	Assuming I can get a mailing list setup ... what do we call it? Who is the "List Owner" (unfortunatley, someone has to be the "list owner")
<Ironhead>	ok how about some point of order to bring topics to a vote. ext...
<WarpHoss>	methodology nethodology
<lmaxson>	I am so unsuspecting of VOICE that I would let it be the list owner.
<DaveW>	these are mechanicals, can be by acclamation
<John>	Are you going to solicit at Warpstock? Will you take credit cards?
<lmaxson>	John, I will not take funds. Period.
<lmaxson>	I will solicity support for any properly funded source.
<Abraxas>	John VOICE will take Credit Cards at WS99 .... it'll be a matter of separating the use of the funds .... VOICE memberships and Escrow
<John>	Somebody has too. You'll get more money if someone takes CCs.
<lmaxson>	solicity -> solicit
<lmaxson>	BMT Micro might consider it.
<lmaxson>	Leave that to VOICE.
<Abraxas>	BMT is handling the VOICE CC transactions
<lmaxson>	The mechanism is in place.
<John>	ok.
<Abraxas>	Projects would be the one to do the "separation of funds"
<Abraxas>	As Treasurer of VOICE
<Projects>	"one for me, one for you" :-)
<DaveW>	i think it would suffice to print a brochure with a tear-off and sak them to mail a check to some address
<Abraxas>	Projects hehe ... something like that :-)
<John>	Before important undertakings, sometimes people pray for strength and guidance.
<DaveW>	key goal should be a convincing brochure by sep 18
*	Projects has no problem with that *
<Abraxas>	John as in "Dear Lord, please don't let me screw this up"?
<Projects>	hehehe
<WarpHoss>	The exact wording of "THEORGANIZATION" and it's Aspirations, prospectus and the like do not exist. and are important pieces of this puzzle.
<Abraxas>	WarpHoss EXACTLY!!
<lmaxson>	Look most of what we need is in place.
<lmaxson>	What we do not have is the communicator role fulfilled.
<lmaxson>	The communicator maintains a single source which contains the essences of all inputs.
<lmaxson>	It's an ongoing, live document.
<lmaxson>	Members contribute, the communicator melds.
<Abraxas>	lmaxson soemthing like an archive of all the IRC logfiles, all of the mailing list traffic, etc??
<lmaxson>	No log reading, no forums, no articles.
<lmaxson>	No, Abraxas, definitely not. A serious compression of all those.
<Projects>	well, /me has to run. Gotta take one of the kids shopping.
<fooser77>	Just a "Brain Fart" -- Plato said that "pure" democracy would eventually destroy itself; thus the republic (representative govt). However, with the internet, who knows! Entire new paradigm. Lynn has a valid point on that.
<lmaxson>	There is our Plato source.
<lmaxson>	Plato should have included "impure" democracies.
<lmaxson>	There is always a chance of initial or eventual failure. There is no chance with no attempt.
<lmaxson>	In biology it's call homeostasis.
<lmaxson>	It's why we eventually die.
<fooser77>	lmaxson: agreed..................
<lmaxson>	That does not prevent us from attempting to prolong life or to make living better.
<lmaxson>	We know the odds.
<lmaxson>	That's why we have Las Vegas.
<lmaxson>	We always try to beat them.
<lmaxson>	We can try here.
<lmaxson>	There's a "we" in each of those.
<WarpHoss>	1> There is a need for the organization. 2> The organization's Aspiration is to insure our investment in OS/2. 3> We need a communicator. Members contribute, the communicator melds. The communicator maintains a single source which contains
<WarpHoss>	the essence of all inputs.
<DaveW>	but in vegas you try to avoid betting on an inside straight
<lmaxson>	No, you try.
<lmaxson>	Las Vegas is betting that enough will.
<lmaxson>	Just the same with a guy showing 18 and saying "hit me" in blackjack.
<lmaxson>	If it
<John>	Gotta go - bye all.
<lmaxson>	If it's a gamble to bet on yourself, then you have to make that decision.
<lmaxson>	I have no problem with it.
*	** John is leaving channel #voice ***
<lmaxson>	I am more than willing to gamble with this community.
<DaveW>	but as you said, we're trying to improve things
<WarpHoss>	21 visitrs at peak. Not counting Bots.
<DaveW>	do we agree we need a "marketing brochure" of some sort?
<lmaxson>	Let's improve them in a manner in which we decide.
<lmaxson>	WarpHoss, I know that's not up to Brad's numbers.
<Ironhead>	lmaxson: Is the orginizaitin to have any body of directos?
<WarpHoss>	I placed that number for factual info not for comparison to someone who is not here.
<lmaxson>	Ironhead, that's not my decision. In my proposal I suggested no, that we act always as a board of the whole.
<lmaxson>	Mine is simply one vote.
<DaveW>	i think that can work
<WarpHoss>	1 20 dollar bill and you are the board.
<lmaxson>	You are a member of the board.
<Ironhead>	vote with the check book.
<lmaxson>	The point is that with vendors we so often feel out of the loop.
<lmaxson>	We should not feel so in our own community.
<lmaxson>	The internet with its ability to retain an ongoing process makes communication possible that we have not experienced before.
<Ironhead>	ok so I asking who speeks to the vendors for the body of the org.
<lmaxson>	Ironhead, we do.
<lmaxson>	I'm sorry, that was somewhat facetious without intent.
<lmaxson>	The point is that we hire a representative who has not choice but to represent our interests and never his own if they differ.
<lmaxson>	not -> no
<lmaxson>	If you are going to have representative government or representation, then that is what it damn well ought to be.
<Ironhead>	this is someone from within the org?
<lmaxson>	It's whomever we pay to do the job.
<lmaxson>	The best people may for this function may be outside the org.
<lmaxson>	This is how you bring them inside.
<lmaxson>	Money talks. You need to ensure that your money talks for you.
<lmaxson>	It's pure crap when someone says he will vote his conscience, making his vote count more than yours.
<lmaxson>	That's how we lost power in this democracy of ours.
<lmaxson>	That keeps us from even controlling the DOJ.
<lmaxson>	We are the ultimate injured parties.
<lmaxson>	Where is this representative government?
<lmaxson>	Why does it take so long?
<lmaxson>	We have an opportunity to change things, not simply for OS/2, but for society in general.
<lmaxson>	We are too long the victims.
<lmaxson>	Have I lost my audience?
*	Ironhead still listening *
*	Abraxas is taking a phone call ... *
<DaveW>	some of us are contemplating politicians with consciences
<dervish>	No, no! Sitll listening.
<dervish>	Still!
<fooser77>	I'm here
<lmaxson>	A politician with a conscience will vote the will of his constituency regardless of his agreement.
<Zoltan>	Me 2
<lmaxson>	Zoltan, the silent.
*	Ironhead agrees *
<DaveW>	more likely the politico will vote his pocketbook and declare it to be conscience
<WarpHoss>	The ongoing "Record" of Inputs is the "Speaker" am I correct?
<DaveW>	likewise, we need to avoid getting too ambitious here
<DaveW>	this is not a project to change American government
<lmaxson>	WarpHoss, the ongoing record is a compendium of remarks by the members pro and con on any issue.
<WarpHoss>	ok.
<DaveW>	ultimately we have to vote issues.
<DaveW>	how do we verify votes?
<lmaxson>	The secret is to get someone, a skilled communicator, who can take those words and unify them within a document so that all may understand the issues.
<Ironhead>	How to present the issues?
<DaveW>	how do i know @sector isn't stuffing to ballot box
<lmaxson>	Ah, the long forgotten voting mechanism.
<lmaxson>	Well, the answer may surprise you, Dave.
<DaveW>	i'm readyh
<lmaxson>	If you have an ongoing discussion of issues, you can also have an ongoing vote.
<lmaxson>	That means you can change as many times as you like until the actual point of decision.
<Sector>	Votes require a membership number, each number is checked to make sure there is only one vote per membership number?
<DaveW>	yes, but how do you know this is really DaveW?
<lmaxson>	That actual point is taken in a vote.
<lmaxson>	Dave, the point is to have such a means of assurance.
<lmaxson>	I don't dictate it, I just say we explore what mechanism we want to have.
<lmaxson>	I'm not really interested in a secret ballot.
<lmaxson>	I may want to know how different people line up on different issues.
<DaveW>	we could set up a warpicity-vote channel with login required
<lmaxson>	It's a public organization using a proxy for a show of hands.
<lmaxson>	Dave, you are already into solutions.
<DaveW>	vote would be known to the members, but restricted to the members
<lmaxson>	Yeh, we are not that public.
<lmaxson>	Until we are ready.
<DaveW>	companion channel #warpicity would have the discussion, vote on the private channel
<lmaxson>	The clue is the ongoing voting mechanism that matches the history of a discussion about any issue.
<lmaxson>	You get to change your vote at will.
<Abraxas>	It's fairly easy to setup an IRC channel and require login to join the channel ... we've done it with VOICE BoD meetings
<lmaxson>	That means you can change your mind as the discussion brings out new issues.
<Zoltan>	I will have to leave, a lion was spotted hiding in my grass..:-)
<lmaxson>	But you only need to do that for an actual vote, an actual decision point.
<Abraxas>	Mailing Lists are pretty good for voting ... it would be up to 1 person to monitor and tabulate the votes
<DaveW>	we can script the vote counting
<lmaxson>	The point is that we have the technology for it on the internet.
<DaveW>	right, and we intend to use the internet as a forum
<lmaxson>	That allows all the community to be online for a decision.
<Abraxas>	And if the list is setup to only allow posts from users who have joined the list, it's easy to see if anyone voted more than once
<DaveW>	and those who can't vote would be encouraged to join
<lmaxson>	You see you have the answers.
<lmaxson>	The most important part is having a clear, non-ambiguous picture of the issues.
<lmaxson>	That's why you need skilled communicators.
<lmaxson>	Even if you are not articulate, they can nevertheless articulate you correctly.
<Abraxas>	lmaxson do you not think it wise to also keep archives of all the logfiles .... in case there is a miscommunication somewhere?
<lmaxson>	That way you do not have to read separate responses unless you want to verify the source.
<lmaxson>	Abraxas, I view this as a website much on the order of a forum on compuserve. Yes, an archive for verification, but not one forced to read.
<Ironhead>	lmaxson: so votes are tabulated at a web site. issues decussed?
<lmaxson>	I keep trying to emphasize to people the importance of being conscious of how you make others spend their time.
<lmaxson>	It is the time thing which kills volunteers as well as discourage others from participating.
<lmaxson>	Ironhead, that is my view.
<lmaxson>	An ongoing vote. An ongoing discusssion.
<lmaxson>	Then finally a majority decision.
<lmaxson>	Pure direct democracy.
<lmaxson>	It's a beautiful system. We ought to make it work even better.
<fooser77>	I think that I understand what Lynn is trying to convey here. We are talking about a "methodology" that sets an entire new paradigm. Any organization, et al would best follow that new paradigm. If we attempt to force a "new paradigm" into an "old paradigm" infrastructure, then we might expect some resistance to that "new paradigm"; possibly destroying that "new paradigm".
<lmaxson>	We are not held back by any technology limits, unlike the Athenians who invented it.
<lmaxson>	I am against unnecessary and harmful paradigms.
<lmaxson>	They are only there because they replaced another.
<madodel>	You assume then that everyone interested will have access to the internet?
<lmaxson>	Mark, yes.
<lmaxson>	I think that is reasonable.
<lmaxson>	Even if they use a proxy (public) facility.
<lmaxson>	I assume the internet is going to be a given in any business situation.
<madodel>	So support will be over the net as well?
<lmaxson>	This at its heart is a business proposition.
<lmaxson>	Mark, yes, where it makes sense.
<lmaxson>	This is an ongoing thing I have with DaveW.
<madodel>	?
<lmaxson>	We are now using an investment we have made in the internet.
<lmaxson>	What are we doing to maximise that investment.
<lmaxson>	Many of our community are non-english speaking.
<lmaxson>	How do we allow them to articulate their desires and comments into our discussion.
<lmaxson>	The point is to address each barrier to communication in turn until none exists.
<lmaxson>	We are an international community. We should foster it fully.
<madodel>	Have you contacted os2.org?
<lmaxson>	Mark, no. Why?
<lmaxson>	I thought originally I could just present Warpicity and leave it at that. Instead I find myself stuck to it like tarbaby.
<lmaxson>	It was an offering, a possible resolution to a set of problems.
<lmaxson>	If it could, it no longer needed me.
<lmaxson>	That's the one part that bothers me most.
<lmaxson>	It's a failure to communicate on my part.
<lmaxson>	That's why in the article I separated the organization and its need and purpose from that of Warpicity. I don't want to make those decisions that should be a group decision.
<lmaxson>	I only want one vote, the equal no more or no less to any other.
<madodel>	Well os2.org seems to be an umbrella organization for the german OS/2 community
<TheSeer>	not only germany..
<TheSeer>	os2.org is the main news and information-server in europe
<lmaxson>	You see we have all these things in place along with the ability to merge them into a cooperative venture which is win-win for everyone concerned.
<madodel>	My apologies. Hopefully the next Speakup will clear up my mis-conceptions
<madodel>	:-)
<TheSeer>	:))
<WarpHoss>	This organization and warpicity are two different "entities".
<lmaxson>	WarpHoss, you are correct.
<WarpHoss>	maybe similiar in soome ways...
<lmaxson>	It was a proposal.
<lmaxson>	Not a demand.
<lmaxson>	Meant to start thinking, not limit it.
<Ironhead>	Thank's to all of you. I must leave look farward to sending in my vote.
<lmaxson>	I'm a great believer in discussion and consensus prior to action.
<lmaxson>	I am almost afraid at times of saying something to DaveW.
<WarpHoss>	ahhh the 7 "P's"
<lmaxson>	Because an action cuts off discussion.
<lmaxson>	7 "P's"?
<WarpHoss>	Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss-Poor Performance.
<lmaxson>	Discussion is important for participation.
<lmaxson>	Then IBM blew it with OS/2.
<WarpHoss>	yes.
<lmaxson>	I think people want a voice (pardon the pun) in things.
<lmaxson>	They need a means of articulation sometimes.
<lmaxson>	I think we should provide it so that they can view their contribution.
<lmaxson>	That allows us all to feel a part of something.
<lmaxson>	If we need online dictionaries, so be it.
<lmaxson>	If we need online text translation, so be it.
<lmaxson>	Whatever we need we should make sure it's available, make sure barriers are at a minimum.
<lmaxson>	That way we learn more of ourselves and others.
<lmaxson>	We heighten our sense of community.
<lmaxson>	We can be a leader in bringing this about elsewhere.
<WarpHoss>	I will interject.... "This is going to be a journey, and the journey is all there is no matter where it ends." Aspiration Reached or not. We can't say that if we do not try to make it work.
<lmaxson>	WarpHoss, that's a reasonable interpretation.
<lmaxson>	We have so much intellectual and experienced resources available to us to worry much about failing.
<lmaxson>	We can only fail if we fail to communicate.
<lmaxson>	Or if we fail to allow communication.
<lmaxson>	That's why in the Warpicity methodology I have only communicators and developers. Communicators make sense out of user needs and what developers produce.
<lmaxson>	Communicators may time spent more economical than otherwise.
<lmaxson>	may -> make
<lmaxson>	Does any of this make sense?
<fooser77>	I agree. The methodology as presented appears sound. In terms of organization, we simply need a communicator(s) to present the methodology (webpage/site). Then more importantly to solicit subscriptions (procure the money(s)). Count me in. I spend $20 on far less important things. I did pledge $100 to WarpX's proposal (Warp5) but nothing seemed to come of it. Let's get this thing going! Pointing to BMT Micro and/or Idelible Blue to c
<dervish>	Yes. I'm certainly not going to disagree! :)
<lmaxson>	We are nearly three hours into this.
<lmaxson>	Perhaps it is time for a pause.
<lmaxson>	To have those quiet moments for comtemplation.
<lmaxson>	And to give VOICE an opportunity to respond.
<lmaxson>	I want to thank VOICE again for this opportunity.
<Abraxas>	You're quite welcome ... anytime
<lmaxson>	Again I look to VOICE to take the point on this.
<lmaxson>	I'm an intellectual foot soldier.
<dervish>	I for one will look forward to reading the log. There is a lot to digest.
<lmaxson>	And a somewhat decent technician.
<lmaxson>	I think there is room for all our skills.
<lmaxson>	Most importantly to remember that OS/2 lives.
<lmaxson>	It's a long way from dead.
<lmaxson>	We all have a part in its future.
<lmaxson>	With or without IBM.
<lmaxson>	StevenL, send me your email address to lmaxson@ibm.net. I want to understand your doubts about Warpicity.
<Abraxas>	That's one of the big points .... with or without IBM :-)
<lmaxson>	The minute you understand there is life in OS/2 without IBM, then we are on our way.
<dervish>	My impression, since I bought OS/2 back in 1995 is that there has been an improvement in communications and a raising of profile. I'm not a techy person - I'm a copywriter - one of your skilled communicators. So I originally found things a little daunting but I hung on to OS/2 for grim death because I found it useful - and could not believe how cruddy Win 95 was! I think that the improvement in communications has been gradual but significant and IBM'assistance
<lmaxson>	I am captain of my ship, I am master of my soul.
<dervish>	I meant improvement outside IBM, of course.
<lmaxson>	We need to draw on the talents we have.
<lmaxson>	We need to keep the communication lines open.
<lmaxson>	I am still somewhat disappointed that no flamers appeared.
<lmaxson>	But maybe better luck next time.
<lmaxson>	I am available at lmaxson@ibm.net and on Section 20, Warpicity Project on OS2CFORUM on CompuServer. To the best of my knowledge non-members have access to the material there.
<lmaxson>	Other than that I write articles for the VOICE newsletter.
<lmaxson>	I am going to have to leave shortly.
<dervish>	I was due at my mother's two hours ago lmaxon! It's your fault ;)
<Abraxas>	As do I .... there are a lot of things I need to get done this weekend .. and not all relate to computers :-)
<Sector>	What else is thereù
<Abraxas>	hehe ... well, food, for one :-)
<DaveW>	it's been a pleasure chatting with you.
<Sector>	Whats that?
<DaveW>	see you next time
<fooser77>	I agree "with or without IBM"; however, let's not count IBM out if we don't have to. "Something is in the air" as on one commenter made in OS/2 Connect latest "Sound Off". I think IBM has taken notice of the Deja.com results lately. They even point to it on the OS/2 website.
<WarpHoss>	Time well spent. For the most part. We came away with 2 things. > the recognition of the need for the organization and the organizations aspiration.
<lmaxson>	I want to thank everyone for their participation.
<lmaxson>	I hope that we have accomplish something on the road to action.
<lmaxson>	Guilty.
<lmaxson>	Abraxas, if there is nothing else, maybe we should call a halt to things.
<lmaxson>	Is it server time lag or what?
<lmaxson>	Bad keyboard breath?
<lmaxson>	Well, then I will sign off. Again, thank you.