VOICE - SpeakUp with Sundial Systems from 09/21/98

SpeakUp with Sundial Systems Support Services: Randell Flint, Rollin White, and Dan Kulp discussing Mesa 2 Version 2.2

[09-21-98] <lmadode> And thank you for Mesa 2.2 GA
[09-21-98] <randell> Thank you for having us...
[09-21-98] <mandie> Could you each tell us a bit about yourself and then we'll get the show on the road
[09-21-98] * Swanee applauds
[09-21-98] * Longstaff applauds politely
[09-21-98] <randell> Ok, I'll start
[09-21-98] <mandie> We won't moderate as we normally have a pretty tame crowd..if they get rowdy..then we will :)
[09-21-98] <randell> As some of you know, I'm president of Sundial and one of its founders.
[09-21-98] <randell> Relish was my baby and I've orchestrated most of our expansion
[09-21-98] <randell> to include our other products.
[09-21-98] <randell> Rollin?
[09-21-98] <rollin> I'm Rollin White, one of the developers and tech support people at Sundial.
[09-21-98] <rollin> My primary focus is Relish and some of our internet products, but we're all involved in all of our products through testing & documentation. Dan...
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> I'm also a developer and tech support person.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> My primary responsibility is Mesa 2, but I do other little things as well.
[09-21-98] <randell> Dan is being too modest... he's the architect of Mesa 2 Version 2.2...
[09-21-98] <randell> Judy, would you like me to go over where we stand on 2.2?
[09-21-98] <mandie> randell: please do
[09-21-98] <randell> Ok...
[09-21-98] <randell> First, we haven't really announced the existacnce of the product yet eventhough virtually everyone knows about the new version.
[09-21-98] <randell> In fact, we thought we would wait until tomomorrow (the 22nd) to announce 2.2.
[09-21-98] <randell> So, that's indeed what we will be doing tomorrow!
[09-21-98] <mandie> So we heard it hear First!
[09-21-98] <randell> We had hope to actually start shipping tomorrow as well but some gremlins got in the way at the printer so it looks like shipments won't start until next Monday (or maybe a little earlier).
[09-21-98] <|tSS|> doh :)
[09-21-98] <randell> As many of you know, we've "announced" that the upgrade to Mesa 2 Version 2.2 will cost $39 (a real steal). We won't announce the price for new purchases until tommorrow unless one of you asks (hint!).
[09-21-98] * |tSS| raises a mitt...
[09-21-98] <randell> (We told our resellers earlier today).
[09-21-98] <Abraxas> randell what IS the cost for a new purchase?
[09-21-98] <|tSS|> Randell: 'd like to know the cost for a new purchase :)
[09-21-98] * Projects asks politely
[09-21-98] <|tSS|> er i'd too... please :)
[09-21-98] <randell> Ok, so someone asked!
[09-21-98] <|tSS|> :)
[09-21-98] <randell> Mesa 2 has traditionally had an MSRP of $179 but we are now *lowering* the price to just $129.
[09-21-98] <randell> And, as a limited time promotion for the next 98 days...
[09-21-98] <randell> it's going to be just...
[09-21-98] <randell> $98.
[09-21-98] <mandie> great! that'll get us through warpstock
[09-21-98] <mandie> Will you be demo'ing at the Sundail Booth?
[09-21-98] <mandie> Sundial even :)
[09-21-98] <randell> Absolutely!
[09-21-98] <randell> We'll all be there!
[09-21-98] <mandie> excellent :)
[09-21-98] <|tSS|> nice :)
[09-21-98] * Longstaff will be there
[09-21-98] <Bill_M> I won't argue that $39 upgrade is a steal - is that just from Mesa 2 2.1.6?
[09-21-98] <mandie> would you like to open the floor to questions?
[09-21-98] <randell> I don't have much else to add yet... so feel free to open it up to questions... Dan will take most of the product feature ones, etc, and Rollin and I will chime in as necessary.
[09-21-98] <randell> The $39 upgrade is from any 2.0.x to 2.1.6 version for which you have a license number.
[09-21-98] <Bill_M> Thank you
[09-21-98] <randell> (There's a different offer for those Describe Special Edition users that haven't purchased our Mesa 2.1.6 Passport upgrade.)
[09-21-98] <mandie> well well...I'll check into that
[09-21-98] <randell> Oh, one thing I might add is that the product name is "Mesa 2" (for the 2nd generatio of Mesa) and the version is "2.2".
[09-21-98] <randell> Some people use "Mesa/2" for that name, but that's never been it.
[09-21-98] <|tSS|> ah ok :)
[09-21-98] <DavidA> Will you be handling upgrades at Warpstock, or should we contact Sundial directly? And whom should we contact?
[09-21-98] <randell> Internally, we sometimes use the phrase "Mesa 2.2" for this version, but we should really say "Mesa 2 Version 2.2"
[09-21-98] <randell> As for upgrades...
[09-21-98] <randell> We will process upgrades at Warpstock but...
[09-21-98] <randell> you will get it sooner if you fill our the order form on
[09-21-98] <mandie> !ask sundial
[09-21-98] <VoiceBot> [sundial] Sundial Systems http://www.sundialsystems.com/ (mandie)
[09-21-98] <randell> our website and mail/fax it in.
[09-21-98] <lmadode> will Sundial be taking phone orders?
[09-21-98] <randell> The $98 non-ungrade offer will be available from us and, we imagine, from most of our resellers. However, the order form won't appear for that one until tommorrow.
[09-21-98] <randell> Yes, we do take phone orders but to reduce errors, we prefer to receive them by fax or mail.
[09-21-98] <randell> You can also email your order, but we don't recommend sending your credit card number than way.
[09-21-98] <randell> Also, we do require you provide us your current license number on all upgrade orders.
[09-21-98] <randell> (If it wasn't clear, upgrades are available only from us.)
[09-21-98] <mandie> Would you like to tell us about some of the new features in 2.2 ?
[09-21-98] <DavidA> Are you going to update the order form to include the upgrade, or should we just write it in?
[09-21-98] <randell> There is a special order form for the upgrade if you follow the links.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> There are a LOT of new features. Are there any in particular you are interested in?
[09-21-98] <randell> Dan, want to *try* to cover *some* new featues... it's hard given that they take 100 pages to describe?
[09-21-98] <randell> Full customization?
[09-21-98] <randell> SmartFormulas?
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> First off, there is a good list of features at http://www.sundialsystems.com/mesa/mesa22introfromhome.html.
[09-21-98] <randell> SmartFreeze (aka locking titles -- the most asked for "missing feature")
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> If you look at the list, you'll see it is fairly impressive. :)
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Lets talk about some of the major ones.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> 1) SmartFreeze (aka locking titles) Ever since 2.0.0 of Mesa 2, this has been the number one feature request by far.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> It's finally been added.
[09-21-98] <Abraxas> YES!!!! ... Thank You
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> 2) Customization - one of my primary design goals of 2.2 was to make as much of the application customizable by the user.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> This include menus, toolbars, accelerators, bunches of default settings, etc...
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Basically, I wanted it to allow you to work the way YOU want to, not the way I want you to.
[09-21-98] <randell> You can even customize (or add your own) SmartFill sequences...
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Yep. Forgot that one. (thanks)
[09-21-98] <randell> Or the way I wanted Dan to want you to...
[09-21-98] <mandie> oh no...we have a choice :)
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> A lot of time was also spent on making the app look nicer and perform better.
[09-21-98] <randell> Dan, want me to describe the SmartFormula stuff...
[09-21-98] <Swanee> SmartFill - Real neat tool!
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> 2.2 sports a new "improved" interface that I think looks nicer.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Sure, go ahead. It's not new, but it's cool.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Oops,. it is new. :)
[09-21-98] <randell> Well, the way *we* did it is new.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> I thought you said SmartFill.
[09-21-98] <randell> Ok, any of you that have seen a recent 1-2-3 demo will recognize...
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Too many smart things. :)
[09-21-98] <randell> there "trick" of typing the word "Total" into a cell and then seeing the total "magically" appear below columns of numbers that are next to that cell...
[09-21-98] <Bill_M> Mr Kulp - the best thing from where I stand is addind the REXX macro language for printing - It makes Mesa 2 a tool
[09-21-98] <randell> Well, that's "hard coded" into 123 as far as we can tell.
[09-21-98] <randell> Dan and I got *real* tired of seeing that so we thought we
[09-21-98] <randell> could to it a little better.
[09-21-98] <randell> Not only do we have "Total"...
[09-21-98] <Rhunter> randell, will you be including a "how to get stock figures off the internet and into mesa 2.2 as part of the manual?
[09-21-98] <randell> But also "Average", "Min", "Max"...
[09-21-98] <randell> And, we let you define your owns as well.
[09-21-98] <randell> Basically, we took their marketing idea...
[09-21-98] <randell> and turned it into a read feature. The key is a new formula function called smartrange() that will look at the cells around that formula to determine a "range" that can be used in the formula.
[09-21-98] <randell> Then you can use that range just like any other range.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> (Bill, Dan is fine. Mr Kulp is too formal.)
[09-21-98] <randell> That's our "
[09-21-98] <rollin> Regarding Internet Stock quotes, that's not something in the manual or the 2.2 product. But it is something relatively easy to do. We may provide examples down the road.
[09-21-98] <Rhunter> rollin...thanks that would be appreciated
[09-21-98] <Swanee> Is it possible to have SmartFill keep placeholders when it does it's work? Like making ABC0001 fill as ABC0002, ABC0003 etc instead of dropping the 0's? (like this - ABC2, ABC3)
[09-21-98] <Swanee> I hope that is clear. :)
[09-21-98] <randell> I don't think we can do that but Dan should comment...
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Good question. I didn't even realize it did that.
[09-21-98] <randell> Ah well, next version.
[09-21-98] <Swanee> hehe
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Let me think about that some more. Send in a request/report to mesa@sundialsystems.com.
[09-21-98] <randell> I guess I should also add that we've further increased the capacity of Mesa 2 workbooks as well.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> I may be able to come up with some sort of workaround.
[09-21-98] <Swanee> Maybe a wildcard that you could associate with a "0"
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Are we back to new feature lists?
[09-21-98] <Swanee> BTW: Dan has done a great job with his Mesa 2 "Extras" page. It has alot of informative stuff for Mesa 2 users
[09-21-98] <randell> You can go our to column ZZZ, back to layer ZZ, and now down to row 999999.
[09-21-98] <randell> Swanee, some of those extras are specific to Mesa 2.1.6, however...
[09-21-98] <Swanee> randell: That's what I have... :)
[09-21-98] <randell> After the 2.2 release, we will be formalizing some of those for 2.2 and making them available via a new portion of our web site.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Most of the 2.2 "extras" are not yet available. I'm working on them though. :)
[09-21-98] <Terrulen> Do the layers make Mesa 2 a true 3D spreadsheet, or is it just like adding more pages?
[09-21-98] <lmadode> jdkulp: What kind of extras?
[09-21-98] <Abraxas> To all users present: At the conclusion of tonight's Speakup, there will be a Trivia Question. First user to answer correctly wins a FREE license to Meas 2 version 2.2
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Mesa 2 is a true 3D spreadsheet. All addresses interally consist of all three parts. It isn't a bunch of glue like Excel 5/95.
[09-21-98] <randell> Swanee, but don't you *want* 2.2? You can download the reference release now and give a temporary license from our web site (for a limited time).
[09-21-98] <Terrulen> So I can add the values of cells A1 - layers A though Y - and have the total put in A1, Layer Z?
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> I also highly recommend Michael Semon's "Simple Guide to Mesa 2" at http://www.gate.net/~mlsemon/Mesa2/index.html
[09-21-98] <Swanee> randell: I do and I have had 2.2 on my machine but removed it. Your upgrade looks very good though and I will probably purchase at WarpStock. :)
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Lots of good stuff there as well.
[09-21-98] <eTronik> any integration with RDBMS ??
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Yep, the formula =SUM([A]A1:[Y]A1) in cell Z1 will work.
[09-21-98] <Swanee> randell: I still have 2.1.6 on my machine. (I didn't want you to think I removed that also)
[09-21-98] <randell> Swanee, I'm curious why you are going to wait until WarpStock?
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> RDBMS?
[09-21-98] <eTronik> relational database management systems ! sorry
[09-21-98] <randell> eTronik, sorry no RDBMS integration at this point.
[09-21-98] <eTronik> not even through JDBC or ODBC ??
[09-21-98] <Swanee> randell: Cause I plan on having "Fun" and supporting OS/2 developers. I don't have great need today as 2.1.6 works well at the moment. :)
[09-21-98] <randell> I don't really want to get into the issue that we also have DBExpert and... well, maybe they will take to each other in the future.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Not in 2.2. We are considering options for future versions, but no promises. :)
[09-21-98] <eTronik> wait a sec, doesn't Mesa support Rexx scripting ??
[09-21-98] <mandie> DBExpert Rulez!
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Yep.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Speaking of REXX, we doubled the number of MScript functions available to REXX script in 2.2
[09-21-98] <eTronik> oh then there are a couple of Rexx libraries able to talk to many database systems so ...
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> I'll just say, "give it a try and let me know how well it works." :)
[09-21-98] <JimLarson> I haven't tried it on 2.2 prerelease, but I couldn't get Object Rexx code to work on 2.1.6. Any plans for that?
[09-21-98] <eTronik> so a rexx routine could read from a Database and populate a Mesa worksheet where the 3D capability would be a potential Killer feature !!
[09-21-98] <eTronik> piyt is I don't know much about Rexx... unfortunately
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> The Object Rexx interpretter SHOULD work fine with Mesa 2. I've tested that.
[09-21-98] <Terrulen> OS/2 e-Zine! will be running a tutorial on Rexx for beginners. I might use DBExpert as an example when dealing with using Rexx to control applications.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> The problem is ORexx compiles everything first then runs it so it sometimes fails on scripts that work with normal Rexx.
[09-21-98] * Terrulen has done some experimentation there already.
[09-21-98] <randell> I may be putting my foot partly in my mouth... but spreadsheets were never really intended to process DBMS data... that's why you have a database front-end program like DBExpert. Then, however, it makes sense to be able to pass this information on to something like Mesa when computational processing needs to be involved. It's really just another kind of thing like like including spreadsheet data in a word processing report... you don't want
[09-21-98] <randell> be your spreadsheet.
[09-21-98] <eTronik> randell: well taht was true before data warehousing came about really strong !
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> 2.2 is better in this regard as is provides a lot more information about problems.
[09-21-98] <randell> Now you can't use DBExpert and Mesa to do that today but maybe sometime in the future... it would have been sooner if OpenDoc hadn't gone away.
[09-21-98] <eTronik> what format does DBExpert use ? DBF ?? any other ?
[09-21-98] <randell> eTronik, somewhat true but I think it's still better to use the right *collection* of tools to solve a problem rather than taking the "one tool for all jobs" approach.
[09-21-98] <rollin> eTronik DBE uses DBF as it's native format but also supports several DB/2 variants
[09-21-98] <eTronik> got it
[09-21-98] <rollin> Dan, I like SmartFreeze amnd the fact it carries over to printing!
[09-21-98] <eTronik> In your opinion , what is the major advantage of DBExpert over Approach ?
[09-21-98] <randell> And what about all the new display handling code and "smooth" zoom?
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Ah. Back to more new features. :)
[09-21-98] <randell> Well, this DBExpert isn't the focus tonight... but perhaps some other time.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> As I mentioned previously, we redid much of the display code to make things look better.
[09-21-98] <lmadode> Will the upgrade come with a new manual? Or is the manual online?
[09-21-98] <eTronik> oh sorry :-)
[09-21-98] <lmadode> OK when will you guys be back to discuss DBExpert? :-)
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> This involved getting all zoom levels working instead of just 50%, 100%, 150%, etc....
[09-21-98] <randell> The upgrade comes with a 100 page supplement to the exising manual.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> We also, added cool things like background images for layers, 22 underline styles, 11 border styles, etc...
[09-21-98] <rollin> lmadode, whenever you like! The next version isn't planned for a while, but it would be good to discuss it before then (nothing like user feedback to drive a new version).
[09-21-98] <randell> The online docs have been updated to cover everything (new and old).
[09-21-98] <mandie> rollin: great! We'll get a date setup :)
[09-21-98] <Zoltan> See you at Warpstock. Got to go..
[09-21-98] <Terrulen> Is Sundial planning to bundle all of its applications together into a unified suite, at least purchasable as a bundle for a lower price than all 4 are separately?
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Speaking of borders, we have 4 new palettes for setting things like line styles, line thinkness, markers, and patterns.
[09-21-98] <randell> Oh no, the "suite" question!
[09-21-98] <Terrulen> Oh yes ;)
[09-21-98] <rollin> Dan, and integration with the standard color and font palletes.
[09-21-98] <Abraxas> To all users present: At the conclusion of tonight's Speakup, there will be a Trivia Question. First user to answer correctly wins a FREE license to Meas 2 version 2.2
[09-21-98] * Swanee was going to ask the "suite" question too!
[09-21-98] <Longstaff> suite is just a marketing expression
[09-21-98] <randell> The simple answer to the suite packaging is "not yet"... but it is something that makes sense for us to do. There are a number of issues (timing and technical) that preclude us from doing it at this time.
[09-21-98] <randell> That said, my official, corporate response is "no comment".
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Another cool new feature of 2.2 is the ability to export a range to an HTML table.
[09-21-98] <lmadode> Ah, so something is in the works?
[09-21-98] <lmadode> now that is cool
[09-21-98] <Terrulen> jdkulp, how customizable is the presentation of that table?
[09-21-98] <randell> A suite is not just a marketing expression... there needs to be some degree of commonality and integration among the components --- that's the difference between a suite and a bundle.
[09-21-98] <mandie> lmadode: randell is going to pull a clinton and revert to last statement!
[09-21-98] <rollin> The HTML feature was very useful to me in managing the SCOUG Open House schedule page. It exports colors and all!
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Not very at this point. It uses all the formatting from the cells including fonts, background colors, text colors, etc... It's supposed to end up looking like the range in the spreadsheet.
[09-21-98] <lmadode> groan, you're not gonna bring sex into this are you mandie?
[09-21-98] <randell> mandie, or I can just blame it all on OpenDoc...
[09-21-98] <mandie> lol
[09-21-98] <OS2pos0> hi BrianB
[09-21-98] <BrianB> hi
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Thus, to customize the table, change the formats of the cells. :)
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> version 2.2 also exports ranges to delimited text, RTF, BMP, and OS/2 Metafiles.
[09-21-98] <lmadode> jdkulp: so I can build tables in Mesa and then export to HTML and put the source HTML into a web page? Very cool
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> It will export graphs to BMP and OS/2 Metafiles.
[09-21-98] <mandie> very cool!
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Yep. HTML export is way cool.
[09-21-98] <randell> Oh, I should have been clear that when I said "commonality" that I did *not* mean that everything in a suite should look, feel, and act exactly the same... a spreadsheet should act like a spreadsheet, not like a word processor (and vice versa)...
[09-21-98] <mandie> randell: but they should be able to integrate with each other?
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Another BIG thing: 2.2 can read Excel 5/95 and 97 files up to 7MB in size.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> It can write Excel 97 files.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> (That was another common feature request)
[09-21-98] <Projects> that little feature saved my bacon a month or so back...
[09-21-98] <randell> mandie: yes, but "integrate" can mean a variety of things... perhaps "work well together" is a better description
[09-21-98] <mandie> ok
[09-21-98] <randell> Dan "pulled off the big one" in getting it to read/write Excel 97 files...
[09-21-98] <lmadode> Now if only Clearlook would do Word97 files
[09-21-98] <Terrulen> Speaking of which, has Clearlook been forgotten in the hubub over Mesa 2?
[09-21-98] <randell> Those files are coded in such as way that they can, theoretically, be read only under windows...
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> (Warpstock 97 was a big trip for Mesa 2. That is when the Excel OLE file stream was "broken" on the plain and when the SmartFormula feature was designed.)
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> (plane)
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> BRB - need more water.
[09-21-98] <Longstaff> can you disclose how you managed excel 07 translation?
[09-21-98] <Projects> hey Garak
[09-21-98] <randell> Ok, I stick my neck out on this one but won't explain why. At some future point in time, it's much more likely that Clearlook will be able to handle Word99 (or whatever it ends up being calle) files than it ever will Word 97 files.
[09-21-98] <Garak> Hi Projects. :)
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> I'm back.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Hex dumps of a bunch of files.
[09-21-98] <Terrulen> Does that have anything to do with Microsoft planning to make HTML the default format for its office suite?
[09-21-98] <randell> I don't think we can disclose how we process the Excel 97 files in any detail.
[09-21-98] <lmadode> I would think M$ would make it impossible for anyone to read word99 files, even their own junk
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Time consuming analysis of hex dumps.
[09-21-98] <randell> Terrulen: "no comment"
[09-21-98] <rollin> Dan sends me email in hex :)
[09-21-98] <mandie> hehe
[09-21-98] * Longstaff had a hunch m$ wasn't exactly falling down to help :)
[09-21-98] * eTronik has set away! (auto away after idling 15 minutes) .gz.
[09-21-98] <lmadode> HTML, but it will be M$ perverted HTML I'm sure.
[09-21-98] <randell> BTW, Clearlook is far from dead... 2.0 is just taking far, far longer than we ever thought it would... in a sense, we are going to 3.0 and still calling it 2.0.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> That is the reason for the 7MB limit. The OLE file stream changes format at 7MB. Looking at 7MB hex dumps to try and figure it out is NOT fun.
[09-21-98] <Garak> How is everything going with DBExpert? How is it, in terms of designing forms, reports and queries? What about objects like checkboxes, listbox and etc. I use Access '97 at work and have yet to explore Approach for OS/2 Warp 4.
[09-21-98] <randell> The entire supplment for Version 2.2 of Mesa was done using (an internal build of) Clearlook -- without any page pasteup at all.
[09-21-98] <Terrulen> I don't suppose you could give us some hints as to what we might expect in the new Clearlook?
[09-21-98] <randell> Garak, DBExpert is really a topic for another night but you would find all those features in it.
[09-21-98] <randell> Terrulen: when it's ready. We belive in "no software before its time" -- probably more so than we ought to.
[09-21-98] <mandie> I'm sure it saves alot of bug reports
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> (that's why 2.2 has been in "PreRelease" stage for so long)
[09-21-98] <mandie> and happier customers in the long run
[09-21-98] <rollin> And fewer .x releases.
[09-21-98] <randell> mandie: definitely... and a lot of customer frustratio as well.
[09-21-98] <BrianB> Probably better than MSs approach "get it out as soon as possible"
[09-21-98] <lmadode> Will there be an open beta of Clearlook 2 like the Mesa 2.2 pre-release?
[09-21-98] <randell> lmadode: probably
[09-21-98] <Garak> randell: That's probably why I was so impressed with Mesa 2.2. The interface was very good and the app seems to run quite smoothly. :)
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Question: Did people like the PreRelease handling?
[09-21-98] <randell> garak: glad you like it... we do to.
[09-21-98] <JimLarson> Where is Sundial Systems located?
[09-21-98] <randell> Dan, good question... I'll really like to know.
[09-21-98] <rollin> Jim: Southern California, but we have developers in several geographies
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> I'm in Boston.
[09-21-98] <Garak> BrianB: Actually, M$ isn't the only company to do that. Then again, I actually like it when a company like Sundial and Lotus take their time to produce their software.
[09-21-98] <Garak> JimLarson: Seal Beach, Calif.
[09-21-98] <|tSS|> hello again all
[09-21-98] <randell> Please, please, don't compare our approach to the one Lotus uses!
[09-21-98] <OS2pos> hi |tSS|
[09-21-98] <BrianB> True...may make the consumers wait but it will be better overall
[09-21-98] <|tSS|> re's os2pos
[09-21-98] <Garak> randell: Hmm, you don't want me to say that your spreadsheet is about as good as Lotus' or better??
[09-21-98] <Bill_M> Dan: sure did, I have been using the pre release since the first of the year for personal records and it has done everything I have ask of it. I like!
[09-21-98] <mandie> Ratti!!! hi :)
[09-21-98] <randell> I'll be frank in saying that 2.2 took way too long. We're trying to adjust our internal proceses so it doesn't happen again... but that's not going to help us too much in getting the next versions of Relish, Clearlook, and DBExpert all
[09-21-98] <randell> out the door.
[09-21-98] <Ratti> Well, I finally have a working (sorta) system again...
[09-21-98] <wysper> hello
[09-21-98] <mandie> hello
[09-21-98] <westwind> hello, sundial speakup is done???
[09-21-98] <Garak> randell: A new version of Relish? Will I be able to drop a small image file on it and use it as a background for my calendar or perhaps make it transparent so I see the Desktop that's behind it. Using the OCean1.bmp file that comes with OS/2 Warp 4 as a background. :)
[09-21-98] <mandie> westwind: nope
[09-21-98] <rollin> Hi Mike!
[09-21-98] <randell> garak, hum... that would be "nice" but it would be hard for us to pull off in Relish 2.3 without a substantial rewrite of the display code and that's not in the 2.3 plan... the new version is actually fairly far along but I'm not prepared to talk about specific features.
[09-21-98] <DaBull> hi rollin, sorry i'm late,... had a hard time getting on line to irc night!
[09-21-98] <mandie> DaBull: hiya :)
[09-21-98] <DaBull> heya
[09-21-98] * Terrulen would settle for having Relish generate a BMP of the calendar every X number of hours (or changes) and setting it as the background.
[09-21-98] <DavidA> randell: Will you be prepared by Warpstock? :-)
[09-21-98] <randell> Any more question for Dan about specfic Mesa features?
[09-21-98] <mandie> Sundial had very good demos at their Warpstock booth last year!
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> We will again this year. :)
[09-21-98] <mandie> no doubt in my mind :)
[09-21-98] <randell> Terrulen: hadn't thought about but like that... what would it be the background "of"? The desktop?
[09-21-98] <randell> Our major problem with demos is that we now have too much to demo!
[09-21-98] <DavidA> Actually, I meant prepared to say something about Relish 2.3......
[09-21-98] <randell> DavidA, sorry I don't follow your question.
[09-21-98] <Terrulen> Randell, yes. I don't have many icons on the desktop.
[09-21-98] <Projects> randell: I know someone using an NT box who posts his calendar as the background for his desktop... nice idea, wrong platform...
[09-21-98] <Terrulen> Warp 4's default doesn't leave many either.
[09-21-98] <DavidA> randell: Just wondered when we'd get an inkling of what's coming in Relish 2.3, that's all...
[09-21-98] <Garak> I don't understand. Why would you want a calendar as a Desktop background? I got a 17 in. monitor.
[09-21-98] <randell> Terrulen, hum... let us contemplate that one. Do keep in mind we have a Relish Web addon that generates HTML for your calendar... but that, obviously, doesn't solve that particular problem.
[09-21-98] <rollin> Who is currently using Mesa? Who is thinking about it?
[09-21-98] <Terrulen> Same reason some people like that OS/2 program that sets the current weather radar map as the background.
[09-21-98] <Projects> Garak: your scheduled appointments etc...
[09-21-98] * Swanee uses 2.1.6
[09-21-98] <mandie> would just be like a desk calander
[09-21-98] * JimLarson has 2.2 Pre
[09-21-98] <Projects> rollin: I was using mesa until it expired august 30, but I'm thinking about purchasing
[09-21-98] * DavidA uses 2.1.6
[09-21-98] <mandie> <---is thinking about it
[09-21-98] <Garak> I got 2.1.6 and waiting for 2.2
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> I used the demo for a class asignment, but that was it.
[09-21-98] <rollin> Projects, apparently you didn't get the update via email, but you can download an updated license/code from the web site.
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> If I ever find myself in need of a spreadsheet all the time...
[09-21-98] <mandie> I used it last year for Warpstock volunteer scheduling and found it quite easy to understand..but I'm sure there are many features that I never touched on
[09-21-98] <randell> DavidA, gee wiz, hum, hah, I don't really want to go into the Relish 2.3 features tonight. I will say, however, that they will include lots of little things people have been asking for (though not everything) plus a couple of surprises.
[09-21-98] <Projects> rollin: er... well... I was getting updates, but found that I wasn't using mesa at the time, so I kinda deleted them. Haven't had the guts to ask for a new license :)
[09-21-98] <rollin> Just hit the web site. I won't even look :)
[09-21-98] <Projects> hehehe
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> I was wondering how one added things to the toolbar, for example: the grid line function.
[09-21-98] <Projects> rollin: found that I needed Mesa about a month ago when someone started sending me Excel97 spreadsheets...
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> mesa recognizes Excel?!? Hmmm
[09-21-98] <Projects> !ask Sundial
[09-21-98] <VoiceBot> [Sundial] Sundial Systems http://www.sundialsystems.com/ (mandie)
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> 2.2 reads Excel 3/4/5/96/97 and writes 3/4/97
[09-21-98] <randell> For those people who joined us late, I should repeat that we will be formally "annoucing" Version 2.2 of Mesa tomorrow (the 22nd)... that the new list price will be $129 (down from $179) and that we will be offering a $98 promotional price for the next 98 days.
[09-21-98] <Garak> rollin: I just thought of something. I use Excel '97 at work to keep track of client payment and related financial info. I can save certain key sheet on to a disk. How well would Mesa 2.2 work with a saved Excel '97 worksheet?
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> As long as the Excel 97 sheet is less than 7MB in size, it should work fairly well getting almost all formulas, formatting, etc...
[09-21-98] <rollin> As long as it is < 7 Megs, it should read it no problem. Macros will not come accross though...
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> It won't import macros.
[09-21-98] <Garak> jdkulp: Hehe, the entire workbook is about 7MB. :)
[09-21-98] <randell> Garak, or as marketing would say it, "no problem"
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> Can the toolbar be edited?
[09-21-98] <randell> Absolutely!
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> In 2.2, the toolbars, menus, keyboard, smartfill, smartformulas, etc... can all be edited.
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> I was having trouble with putting a button for gridded lines on the demo...
[09-21-98] <Garak> rollin: I'm not using macros. So, I'm not worry about it. Just want to take advantage of Mesa at home and port the thing back to Excel for use at work.
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> Couldn't find it in the help files...
[09-21-98] <randell> You can have multiple toolbars, and place then in different parts of the window... or make them floating.
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> Oh?
[09-21-98] <rollin> Garak: sounds like a good fit.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> The Prerelease help file was not finished. It's been updated since then.
[09-21-98] <Garak> Fuzzy: Yep, they made the toolbar so you can modify it to fit your need.
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> I have the demo that came on the Warpstock97 CD...
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Randell, what version was that? 2.1.6?
[09-21-98] <randell> Fuzy|logic, that's the *old* demo of 2.1.6... it does *not* have customizable toolbars. (It was 2.1.6)
[09-21-98] <Garak> I actually think that it might be nicer, if Mesa 2.2 included some "predefined" set of toolbars.
[09-21-98] <randell> Dan, don't comment on that.
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> Hmmm, well that's why... That IS the version I have... I'll have to d/l the new one...
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> I LOVE the Cactus guy's demo... :)
[09-21-98] <randell> Fuzy, yes, please download the demo of 2.2... it's majorly different... we should have called it 3.0.
[09-21-98] <Garak> randell: I hope you guys update the Cactus tutor to include all of the new stuff.
[09-21-98] <randell> Fuzy... just to be clear, it won't be obvious on our website where to find the 2.2 demo until *after* we annouce it tommorow.
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> ... You mean there really isn't a Big Nate .. :(
[09-21-98] <Garak> randell: I'd have to agree with you on that. :) This was more like a 3.0 version than a 2.2. :)
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> I guess I'll wait till tomorrow then, thinking of using mesa for my side business...
[09-21-98] <randell> Garak, we didn't get a chance to upate the Big Nate example to add the new stuff... and I don't have a good excuse why we didn't.
[09-21-98] <mandie> rdandell: STOP THE PRESS!
[09-21-98] <randell> (Sorry for all the typos in my stuff, but I'm on a keyboard that I'm not used to and it's acting a little flakey.)
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Not entirely true. I did update the graphs to use new 2.2 features and look better.
[09-21-98] <Garak> randell: Eh, how about the help files?
[09-21-98] <randell> Major, major, redo of the help files.
[09-21-98] <Garak> randell: That's good.
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> If I buy Mesa, does it come with a hard-copy manual?
[09-21-98] <rollin> Yes
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> Good :)
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> I know a guy who updates his websight via mesa and REXX, I was very impressed...
[09-21-98] <randell> Almost 300 page manual plus 100 page supplement for 2.2 -- that's how much is new and improved.
[09-21-98] <Garak> rollin: Is it basically the same book that I got with 2.1.6? Hope not.
[09-21-98] <mandie> to save time..is it ok if I post the specific url for the demo and request for eval license
[09-21-98] <rollin> It's the same book plus the 100 page supplement.
[09-21-98] <randell> mandie, yes.
[09-21-98] <mandie> http://www.sundialsystems.com/mesa/mesa22intro.html
[09-21-98] <mandie> !set mesademo http://www.sundialsystems.com/mesa/mesa22intro.html
[09-21-98] <VoiceBot> [mesademo] Has been added.
[09-21-98] <mandie> so the expiring license will allow you to use all features of the demo?
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> cool
[09-21-98] <rollin> Mandie, yes fully functional.
[09-21-98] <randell> Please keep in mind we will be making significant updates to the site over the next several days because of tomorrow's announcment of 2.2... references to verson 2.1.6 will be disappearing and 2.2 will become the "current" version.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Actually, the demo itself will allow you to use all the features of Mesa, except it is limited to 20x40x2.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> The license number gives you the full 18K columns, 99,999 rows, and 702 layers.
[09-21-98] <mandie> ah, ok
[09-21-98] <randell> The temporary licenses will be available for a limited time only and all expire toward the end of October.
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> Who in their right mind would have a spreadsheet that big?!?
[09-21-98] <DaBull> bill gates
[09-21-98] <Garak> jdkulp: Just wondering, How long a name can I use for an individual worksheet? I'm also guessing that I can modify the color of the tab. Right?
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> You'd be surprised. One of the beta testers keeps sending me 30MB files. Takes forever to download and debug.
[09-21-98] <Ratti> No, not Bill Gates, someone in his right mind...
[09-21-98] <randell> We do have some customers with *amazingly* large sheets.... mostly people doing incredible amounts of data reduction or graphing. Dan, how many point on that one graph?
[09-21-98] <mandie> <---Just applied for eval license
[09-21-98] <mandie> ah...there it is!
[09-21-98] * Projects just applied again :-/
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Several thousand.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Garak: Layer names must be between 3 and 15 characters inclusive.
[09-21-98] <randell> I'm not trying to boast... but like Relish, Mesa is now an extremely solid product. It handles extreme volumes of data (the limits aren't just marketing claims) and virtually never crashes.
[09-21-98] <JimLarson> Is 2.2 the same as 2.2 Pre. I think "exportbmp" black holes my machine. I was thinking of waiting for 2.2 to see if it went away. Sorry, haven't had time to do a bug report.
[09-21-98] <Garak> jdkulp: The reason that I ask, is that I use one sheet for each client and guess what I name each sheet. :)
[09-21-98] <randell> Jim, hard to say since there were 6 prereleases of 2.2.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> The GA version is much more stable than the early PreReleases.
[09-21-98] <randell> However, we haven't had reports of problems with exportbmp so please let us know if you do have one with the released code.
[09-21-98] <JimLarson> OK
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> One of the nice things about the PreRelease was that a LOT of people pounded on it and found a bunch of bugs.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Kept me quite busy. I would have been very bored otherwise. :)
[09-21-98] <mandie> jdkulp: maybe you could work p/t with the comm/2 team :)
[09-21-98] <randell> When (once in a blue moon) Mesa *does* have a problem, Dan takes it very, very seriously.
[09-21-98] <Garak> randell: Any chance you'll crossplatform Mesa 2.2 to Linux?
[09-21-98] <randell> Garak, Linux is very different thatn OS/2...
[09-21-98] <mandie> don't try to get our os2 programmers into another platform! We need all the good dedicated programmers that we can get
[09-21-98] <randell> I don't want to make any specific promises about versions for other platforms... but we are keeping our options open.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> mandie: Good answer. I'll have to remember that one. :)
[09-21-98] <mandie> :)
[09-21-98] <randell> Right now, our primary goal is to contiue to support the OS/2 community with the best family of product we can offer.
[09-21-98] <mandie> randell: and we are very thankful of that!
[09-21-98] <rollin> Anyone interested in a trivia question?
[09-21-98] <JimLarson> go
[09-21-98] <Garak> Sure. :)
[09-21-98] <randell> Is it that time already?
[09-21-98] <rollin> Mesa 2 is the second generation of Mesa. What was the first platform that Mesa was developed for?
[09-21-98] <Terrulen> Amiga.
[09-21-98] <rollin> nope
[09-21-98] <JimLarson> Unix
[09-21-98] <Garak> rollin NEXT!
[09-21-98] <randell> Wrong. Sorry.
[09-21-98] <rollin> nope
[09-21-98] <SteveL> next step
[09-21-98] <randell> Garak, can you be more specific?
[09-21-98] <mandie> garak: get your nose out of the manual! :)
[09-21-98] <westwind> cpm
[09-21-98] <Garak> randell: I only remember that Mesa was originally developed for a high powered OS called NEXT OS. Don't know anything else.
[09-21-98] <Ratti> power pc
[09-21-98] <rollin> Close enough!
[09-21-98] <rollin> Next Step is the complete answer.
[09-21-98] * Terrulen grinds his teeth.
[09-21-98] <rollin> And the winner gets....
[09-21-98] <Projects> a pat on the back
[09-21-98] <Projects> :)
[09-21-98] <mandie> Garak: congratulations!
[09-21-98] <DaBull> Garak take the money! :)
[09-21-98] <mandie> lol
[09-21-98] <randell> Athena Design, the orginal developers of Mesa and Mesa 2 started out developing for Next Step on the Next computer that Steve Jobs designed as a replacement for the Mac.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> I guess he gets a history lesson. :)
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> How did you end up with the code?
[09-21-98] <Garak> mandie: I read it on a web site somewhere. It was in regards to Athena Design.
[09-21-98] <randell> That version of Mesa was a single layer speadsheet and Mesa 2 for OS/2 was a complete redesign.
[09-21-98] * Terrulen almost had it, because he remebered seeing a screenshot of Rasphody with Mesa running in it, funnily enough. But I remembered too late =(
[09-21-98] <rollin> Garak gets a copy of Mesa 2 2.2 of course
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> ...so you didn't get the code?
[09-21-98] <randell> The Mesa 2 of today is a far different prodcuct that Mesa (1) or the original Mesa 2.
[09-21-98] <JimLarson> I got my original license from Athena.
[09-21-98] <randell> Both the code and the customer base (for the OS/2 product) were transferred from Athena to us back in 1996.
[09-21-98] <Terrulen> Isn't Athena now working on a Java spreadsheet component called Integer?
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> I was transfered too. :)
[09-21-98] <randell> Yep, but it's a different product still... primarily intended toward corporate developers, not end users.
[09-21-98] <DaBull> speaking of Java, will there be any java in my relish in the future? :)
[09-21-98] <randell> But Dan wouldn't move out here from Boston so we left him there.
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> I would personnaly find a native solution more appealing.
[09-21-98] * Fuzy|ogic can't spell to save his life...
[09-21-98] <randell> Sorry, but I'll have to put our Java plans (if any) in the same category as the cross platform questions.
[09-21-98] * mTnBkR has set away! (auto away after idling [45 min]) [Log:ON] .gz.
[09-21-98] <mandie> Three cheers for the OS/2 Natives! :)
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> Amen
[09-21-98] <randell> I think it's safe to say we know OS/2 native just about better than anyone else.
[09-21-98] <randell> Relish, Mesa 2, Clearlook, and DBExpert were *all* designed as native, multi-treaded, OS/2 apps.
[09-21-98] <randell> Opps, that should have been "multi-threaded"... darn keyboard.
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> DBExpert is a relational DBMS, right?
[09-21-98] <randell> Yep.
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> ... don't thread on me...
[09-21-98] <DaBull> at least you didn't call them multi-dreaded! heheh
[09-21-98] <JimLarson> Well, I wish you all the success in the world. Must go now, Thanks.
[09-21-98] <mandie> Just curious...how many folks that are attending have applied for an eval license?
[09-21-98] <randell> Though it's best to think of DBExpert as an end-user access tool for relational databases -- that just happens to come with one if you don't have one. It's not a "database engine" in the sense of something like DB2.
[09-21-98] <Projects> mandie: I did... again :)
[09-21-98] <mandie> I did for the first time
[09-21-98] <randell> Details on *all* our products, by the way, are on our web site (www.sundialsystems.com) if you haven't figured that out already.
[09-21-98] <marv> I own mesa 2 and DBEzpert and Clearlook
[09-21-98] <randell> Marv, now I just have to convince you to get Relish so your are 4 for 4...
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> I'm really liking what I hear about Mesa/2, but can you tell us anything about DBExpert, or did I miss that already.
[09-21-98] <randell> We're gonna come back another time to cover DBExpert...
[09-21-98] <Ratti> Not me. But I almost never use spreadsheets... It wouldn't be fair to apply when I know I won't use it...
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> Oh
[09-21-98] <lmadode> Fuzy|ogic: DBExpert will be discussed on another night
[09-21-98] <mandie> randell: we would like to have folks return for another speakup...do you want it program specific or cover all of Sundial products?
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> Will DBExpert be demoed at WarpStock?
[09-21-98] * westwind will try eval license
[09-21-98] <rollin> It's too hard to cover all the products...
[09-21-98] <Garak> randell: Cool! I'll be looking forward to that. :)
[09-21-98] <rollin> The first demo I did to a user group after we had acquired the fourth product was limited to one hour. I don't think I had every talked so quickly!
[09-21-98] <mandie> ok, then how about DBExpert next..seems to be alot of questions pertaining to that tonight
[09-21-98] <rollin> Mandie, sounds good.
[09-21-98] <mandie> and rollin can talk fast!
[09-21-98] <randell> We'll demo *everything* at Warpstock as well as have some "birds of a feather" sesssions to let you ask questions and exchange ideas.
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> Great! I'm looking forward to warpstock the way an 8-year-old looks forward to Christmas... :)
[09-21-98] <mandie> fuzy: I'm 53 and still look forward to x-mas...and Warpstock ! :)
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> Your all invited up to my room for a nightcap.
[09-21-98] <randell> We're looking forward to it too... but if it's anything like last year, we're gonna be totally exhusted before its done!
[09-21-98] * mandie doesn't wear nightcap's ..it messes up her hair!
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> More so I'll bet. :)
[09-21-98] <Projects> blast... 'nother party I'm gonna miss :(
[09-21-98] * lmadode has a warpstock platinum pass but can't go. :-(
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> lmadode: wanna donate it to someone else... :)
[09-21-98] <marv> I will buy wour pass
[09-21-98] <lmadode> Fuzy|ogic: I'm not sure it's transferrable any more.
[09-21-98] <Swanee> Fuzy|ogic: Can I have the lampshade before Abraxas gets it? :)
[09-21-98] <Projects> hahahahaha
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> Well I have one, but I have a procrastinating friend :/
[09-21-98] <randell> Since Dan's on the east coast, he'll probably be ready to get out of here soon... any more technical Mesa questions for him before he goes?
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> Sure!
[09-21-98] <DaBull> night all!
[09-21-98] <lmadode> Folks please remember that tonight's speakup was brought to you by VOICE. Please check out the VOICE web site - http://www.os2voice.org if you can. And consider joining VOICE to help support OS/2.
[09-21-98] <mandie> I would like the thank Randell, Dan and Rollin for taking their time to help the OS/2 community!!
[09-21-98] <DavidA> Hear! Hear!
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> Thanks!
[09-21-98] <mandie> We will schedule a future speakup with Sundial to discuss DBExpert
[09-21-98] <rollin> MY pleasure!
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> You're quite welcome.
[09-21-98] <Garak> Yes, hear! Hear!
[09-21-98] <OS2pos> cheer cheer
[09-21-98] <SteveL> Same here...
[09-21-98] <westwind> 3cheers! ! !
[09-21-98] <randell> And we'd like to thank all of you for supporting our efforts.
[09-21-98] <mandie> Also, keep an eye open in the VOICE newsletter for a review of Mesa 2 2.2 :)
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> Keep up the good work! :)
[09-21-98] <randell> No mandie, it's not "Mesa 2 2.2", it's Mesa 2 Version 2.2"... sorry, but I had to put my "marketing message clarification" hat on there for a minute...
[09-21-98] <mandie> I will be sure to remember that :)
[09-21-98] <ptackbar> it's right on the webpage :)
[09-21-98] <mandie> any more questions for the Sundial team?
[09-21-98] <mandie> ptack :P and in my email! :)
[09-21-98] <randell> Seriously, we tried "Mesa 2 2.2" for awhile and it just confused the heck out of people so we're now trying to be real careful about the name and version...
[09-21-98] <Projects> so, Mesa/2 2 v2.2 :)
[09-21-98] <Swanee> Great job Dan Randell and Rollin!
[09-21-98] <mandie> understood
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> What tools do you use for Writing code, what IDE?
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> I personally hate IDE's.
[09-21-98] <mandie> jdkulp: prefer SCSI's?
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> I use Visual Slickedit and the lovely command line.
[09-21-98] <Garak> I'm thinking that they use Visual C.
[09-21-98] <randell> The codebase is all C++ and compiled using Visual Age C++.
[09-21-98] <Swanee> mandie: haha, I got it...
[09-21-98] <mandie> Swanee: jdkulp IS a serious programmer! :)(
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> OK, I plan to get Vis Age 4.0 when available, and it always helps to know that it's a good choice.
[09-21-98] <SteveL> Do you use any GUI builders or is it all PM?
[09-21-98] <randell> All PM and some serious GPI coding that Dan has spent many sleepless nights over.
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> It's all PM, kind of. We have our own C++ wrapper for PM that are used to create the controls.
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> cool...
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> I'm a very serious "object" person. I definitely needed the C++ object wrappers.
[09-21-98] <Fuzy|ogic> I'm an aspiring OS/2 programmer, sp you guys are like heroes to me.
[09-21-98] <rollin> I don't know about heros. We've just been down the long road ahead of you.
[09-21-98] <SteveL> Dan. Don't you find generating the PM code time consuming or are the GUI builders just too limited?
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> GUI builders are a bit limited. If you a good C++ object code base, it's really not that time consuming.
[09-21-98] <randell> Having been an OS/2 programmer for now over 10 years, I'm not sure how I'd advise an "aspiring" OS/2 programmer at this point in time.
[09-21-98] <Ratti> Fuzzy|ogic: I've been a programmer for 27 years. OS/2 and otherwise. Take my word for it: get an MBA!
[09-21-98] <SteveL> True. Once you got a base, you can do a lot of cut and paste. Getting the base is another story.
[09-21-98] <rollin> C++ != Cut & paste. C++ = inherit :)
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> It's not even cut and paste for the most part. C++ allows code reuse through inheritance.
[09-21-98] * marv has set away! (auto away after idling [15 min]) [Log:ON] .gz.
[09-21-98] <mandie> randell: might be a good "birds of a feather" session :)
[09-21-98] <randell> Well, ok, I don't usually let people in on this, but it's really Dr. Randell Flint whose one time really got his kicks by working out what the future of user interface designs should be (before such time as there were windows).
[09-21-98] <mandie> ahhh..now the truth comes out! :)
[09-21-98] <SteveL> I get plenty of inheritance. I just don't seem to get it for graphical stuff. Probably just don't do enough of it.
[09-21-98] <randell> mandie, I lost the thread... "what" might be a good birds of a feather?
[09-21-98] <mandie> aspiring programmers Q&A session
[09-21-98] <mandie> marketing their products ???
[09-21-98] <randell> mandie, might indeed be... but not one we can schedule... perhaps you can suggest it to the Warpstock scheduling folks.
[09-21-98] <mandie> will do
[09-21-98] <randell> mandie, I'll be happy to attend if you get it scheduled (and I have no conflicts)
[09-21-98] <mandie> great..I'll have them keep that in mind when doing the schedule
[09-21-98] <mandie> any further questions for Sundial?
[09-21-98] <mandie> I know you folks must be getting tired (Dan) :)
[09-21-98] <DavidA> None here, just keep up the great work!
[09-21-98] <mandie> I'd like to thank you again and we'll get you on the schedule for another speakup
[09-21-98] <mandie> OH
[09-21-98] <mandie> See you all at Warpstock!!! :)
[09-21-98] <rollin> Thanks again guys!
[09-21-98] <randell> Thanks for having us.
[09-21-98] <mandie> you're welcome anytime!!
[09-21-98] <mandie> nytol :)
[09-21-98] <Swanee> Thanks rollin, randell and jdkulp
[09-21-98] <jdkulp> Thanks a bunch. It's been fun.
[09-21-98] <Abraxas> rollin thanks for joining us (and randell and jdkulp, too)
[09-21-98] <lmadode> And the log of tonight's Speakup should be posted to the VOICE web site and OS2SS mirror by tomorrow IRC log ended Mon Sep 21 22:02