SpeakUp: The Warpdoctor Project from 10/02/99

<WarpHoss>	MODE +o madodel
<lmaxson>	Will someone tell MerlinOS2 about the SciTech deal.
<madodel>	Gee is this the right channel?
<lmaxson>	Mark, this is "the" channel.
<madodel>	I guess another day I don't get any peace and quiet
<madodel>	:-)
<Sector>	Nope, your in the wrong place
<madodel>	ù
*	MerlinOS2 bludgeons MerlinOS2 with the cluebat *
<Sector>	Try #os2 it's nice and quiet
<WarpHoss>	http://www.egroups.com/group/sddos2/363.html? \\IBM licenses a version of the display doctor.
<lmaxson>	Mark, I have an email from you on this.
<lmaxson>	Looks good.
<lmaxson>	I also have a receipt for my order with SciTech.
<madodel>	on what?
<lmaxson>	Display Doctor for OS/2.
<madodel>	Guess Brad was a tad off when he declared OS/2 dead
<lmaxson>	I also have the copy of Kendall Bennett's email.
<lmaxson>	Brad is good at revising history.
<lmaxson>	Hopefully we will be good at making it.
<madodel>	:-)
<MerlinOS2>	if all those having os/2 ....or even a large percentage go for softwarechoice, that should make a bunch of money available to budget for development of drivers and such
<MerlinOS2>	if ibm chooses to do so
<madodel>	ibm would use the funds to help their big clients migrate to NT
<lmaxson>	IBM already has an announced pipeline of products for the next 2-3 years.
<MerlinOS2>	wonders when mickeysoft bought ibm ...missed the stock news lol
<lmaxson>	Mark, stop being the optimist.
<svobi>	yeah looks like: had SW choice for us$ 250 and got nothing for it :-(((
<Abraxas>	This just in from the Hardware mailing list:
<Abraxas>	>Challenge: If you think $200/2years is not excessive for your first-class
<Abraxas>	>comforts on the cattle trucks marked "OS/2-Auschwitz", think about what
<Abraxas>	>the same funds could do to save your PC future if directed to a
<Abraxas>	>goal-oriented user organization like Lynn Maxson's propounding. And let
<Abraxas>	>me say that although his software development methodology seems to me to
<Abraxas>	>be absolutely critical for our survival, I think the user organization
<Abraxas>	>thing is perhaps even more critical - and quicker to get to a state of
<Abraxas>	>effectiveness.
<lmaxson>	The problem was you paid but most of the useful options were free to everyone.
<MerlinOS2>	the way ibm works they would be dumb enough to hook everyone up with softwarechoice or else ..and then release a 200.00 warp5 upgrade 2 weeks later
<lmaxson>	Wow.
<lmaxson>	Who wrote that?
<WarpHoss>	Basil Fernie.
<madodel>	ibm stock continues to plummet. It closed at 117.75 yesterday.
<lmaxson>	Well, he is right about the organization.
<lmaxson>	We will prove him right about the methodology.
<WarpHoss>	We have an opportunity to make it fall even farther.
<svobi>	to abraxas: what the hell has "Auschwitz" to do here??? sounds characterless !!!
<Abraxas>	madodel along with everyone else in the top 30 Blue Chips that make up the DJIA
<Abraxas>	svobi I was quoting a message from someone else
<MerlinOS2>	lot related to chip problems in singapore reaction
<madodel>	Abraxas: can't say about the others, but ibm is killing me
<MerlinOS2>	balmers remarks about overvalueation didn't help either
<MerlinOS2>	but he is correct for a lot of tech stocks
<lmaxson>	MerlinOS2 gets to the heart about IBM not being some single-minded, coherent, monolithic enterprise.
<MerlinOS2>	ibm has always been a hello left hand ...this is right hand type of place
<lmaxson>	The left-hand is often out of sync with the right.
<MerlinOS2>	remember boca developed the ibmpc and figured only 40,000 units would be sold
<svobi>	left hand to right hand ??? right dumb and little finger cannot hold the glass properly
<lmaxson>	It's difficult to bring order out of chaos in a chat session.
<lmaxson>	IBM is not the enemy.
<MerlinOS2>	never said they were.....just that they are not helping very much
<lmaxson>	If we have an enemy it is complacency.
<lmaxson>	What would you have IBM do?
<MerlinOS2>	develope and release warp5 and get rid of the silly notion of requiring software choice subscriptions
<lmaxson>	It has made a move to improve OS/2 display drivers.
<lmaxson>	If there were a similar package for sound drivers, it might do that as well.
<MerlinOS2>	yup but my guess is only after much screaming by corporate accounts
<lmaxson>	Well, at least some screams of OS/2 users are effective.
<MerlinOS2>	true
<lmaxson>	I would guarantee you that they don't waste their energy screaming.
<MerlinOS2>	until those driver releases if you bought a bunch of new machines, you would have to look around for older video cards to backfit them with
<lmaxson>	Are we back the Gift Horse here?
<lmaxson>	This is a very positive movement by IBM.
<lmaxson>	What surprises some is that they did not offer it with Software Choice but free with ddpak.
<lmaxson>	Maybe the corporate accounts forced that to happen in that manner.
<lmaxson>	If so, maybe we can forge an alliance with those accounts.
<MerlinOS2>	to me there are too many os/2 systems ..ie tellermachines etc that would have to have an alternative developed for ibm would have to pay bunches more to develope that new environment
<madodel>	Those corporate accounts have access to that stuff via Passport Advantage don't they?
<MerlinOS2>	or loose to some java alternative
<lmaxson>	If you have the money, you too can have Passport Advantage.
<MerlinOS2>	if their direction is to go to application servers feeding thin clients, us folks in the no broadband alternative areas will be at a major disadvantage
<lmaxson>	IBM has more offerings and more changes to offerings than one can reasonably track.
<MerlinOS2>	be back in a few
<Zoltan>	Hello All.
<lmaxson>	If the only alternative is to go broadband, you are correct. But as it turns out that is not true.
<lmaxson>	It doesn't make any difference what IBM's direction is as long as in includes OS/2.
<lmaxson>	Whether server or client we will continue to reap the benefits.
<Abraxas>	Hi, Zoltan
<MerlinOS2>	having a server without a client is like haveing nt without w95
<madodel>	Not off of SWC, we won't. You need a Server subscription to access the server options
<lmaxson>	IBM's direction has had no negative effects on us so far.
<MerlinOS2>	if they are 'supposedly' trying to pull away from os/2...why go to all the expense to develop warp server to compete with nt...does not compute
<lmaxson>	What other platform do the lan server developers have?
<MerlinOS2>	pick yer choice of unix
<madodel>	merlinOS2: Why did they release Warp4 when they had already decided to not fight microsoft and cut their losses? Who knows why ibm does what it does?
<lmaxson>	MS has cut them off at the pass with the restricted license with NT workstation.
<lmaxson>	The lan server folks do not have an UNIX version for a non-Intel platform.
<MerlinOS2>	to me right now there is more dissatisfaction with msoft than ever...IT managers are saying upgrade to win2000 is toooooo expensive and redhat etc could do damage
<lmaxson>	Dissatisfaction does not translate automatically into disregard.
<lmaxson>	You may be unhappy about something you feel forced to do.
<madodel>	MerlinOS2: The lemmings will jump on win2k, as they did with all of m$'s crapware. They will bitch and complain that things don't work as promised, but no one really expects m$ to deliver anyway.
<lmaxson>	The doing of it is all the MS cares.
<lmaxson>	Our interest is OS/2.
<lmaxson>	What can we do to protect our interest?
<MerlinOS2>	most likely madodel but they are mostly saying it's not the software , it the cost of the required hardware upgrades on multiple machines
<lmaxson>	We needn't worry about what someone else is doing.
<MerlinOS2>	how else can you explain the recent os/2 sales numbers
<MerlinOS2>	bet some of them are IT managers evaluating alternatives
<lmaxson>	Exceeds expectations, but still not high enough to generate concern.
<VoiceBot>	MODE +o Projects
<lmaxson>	Do figures lie or do liars figure?
<MerlinOS2>	bottom line is os/2 works for what I do...and I will probably run it until the wheels fall off
<lmaxson>	So will we all, say I.
<lmaxson>	I see we are getting close the the magic hour.
<lmaxson>	Are you ready, WarpHoss?
<lmaxson>	welcome.
<WarpHoss>	Sure.
<lmaxson>	I think you have an audience.
<warspite>	Hi there
<lmaxson>	Come to here about Warp Doctor?
<lmaxson>	here -> hear
<lmaxson>	Actually both work.
<warspite>	Yes, but this is my first time. I've finally made it!
<lmaxson>	What IRC software are you using?
<warspite>	GTIRC
<lmaxson>	Works for me.
<lmaxson>	Have trouble locating us?
<warspite>	Yes, but it's my fault. I'm not used to juggling with timezones
<lmaxson>	No problem juggling channels however?
<warspite>	I'm definitely a newbie. Went to Webbnet and the rest was easy.
<WarpHoss>	!ask time
<VoiceBot>	[time] http://www.javagoodies.com/worldclk.html (WarpHoss)
<lmaxson>	Well, this is the #voice channel and your host today is WarpHoss.
<lmaxson>	Do you want to start a pool about when Dave Watson will show?
<mandie>	hello
<warspite>	I remember it when I first went on the web in 1996
<lmaxson>	hello, mandie.
<Sector>	Already here...
<mandie>	hi Lynn
<WarpHoss>	"The Warp Pharmacy" it exists.
<lmaxson>	Snuck in there.
<mandie>	I am here in spirit only...working in background
<lmaxson>	Hello, Dave.
<WarpHoss>	http://www.cdc.net/~dupre/pharmacy/WarpPharmacy.html \\for example.
<DaveW>	hi, all. and pharmacy hasn't been maintained sincd '96
<warspite>	But it's starting to get together now?
<WarpHoss>	In another form http://members.home.net/westfieldscientific/Prototypes/warpdoctor.html \\this is prototype front-end only.
<DaveW>	i think the key question at this stage is "who needs it" and "what do they need"
<DaveW>	okay, that's 2 questions
<mandie>	someone logging?
<WarpHoss>	and there was some stuff at http://www.os2ss.com/Information/Pharmacy/old/McKenney/note16.html
<Sector>	Yup
<mandie>	thx :)
<DaveW>	we seem to have gotten along withough pharmacy for 3 years
<mandie>	this is true and ppl have hade to adhoc search for answers anywhere in hope of finding them
<lmaxson>	Seems we have had to get along without Warp Pharmacy for 3 years. There's a difference.
<DaveW>	i think there is a lot of need for that sort of function
<warspite>	That's not to say we haven't needed assistance
<DaveW>	teamos2help mailing list has stayed very busy
<mandie>	they have gotten along without it only because it didn't exist. That does not say it was not missed or needed
<madodel>	As has POSSI and OS2-List and the Hardware List and others
<mandie>	mailing lists are great sources but.....
<DaveW>	it doesn't exist because nobody perceived enough of a need to do anything about is
*	tandie bows *
<DaveW>	it
<mandie>	some folks are just to busy and don't sign up for mailing lists due to the amount of email that's generated
*	tandie found a nice alternative to a mailing list *
<madodel>	then there is also Usenet
<mandie>	hi tandie
<tandie>	hi mandie
<DaveW>	also, have we analyzed why pharmacy folded?
<warspite>	However, it would be able to OS/2 newbies, do you think?
<mandie>	wasn't it in conjunction with the folding of the team os/2 website?
<lmaxson>	Well, let's clear the air.
<lmaxson>	The question is not whether Warp Pharmacy.
<lmaxson>	But when.
<lmaxson>	And what form.
<DaveW>	those are less important that "what"
<lmaxson>	What has happened is history.
<lmaxson>	We are at the point of changing that.
<DaveW>	those who ignore it are doomed to repeat it
<lmaxson>	Or repeat me.
<DaveW>	unlikely
<lmaxson>	No one is immune.
<warspite>	What will be used as a "data pool"?
<tandie>	might I make a statement?
<DaveW>	seems more important that we define what the users need than to start defining the data pool
<lmaxson>	Go tandie.
<DaveW>	we also need to define a maintenance process
*	MerlinOS2 has set away! (auto away after idling [15 min]) [Log:ON] .gz. *
<DaveW>	pharmacy had a decent data pool, but couln'dt maintain it
<madodel>	data gets stale
<warspite>	Also a contributory mechanism.
<lmaxson>	Tandie?
<tandie>	I came up with the idea that a website geared towards windows users, showing them why OS/2 is a good choice to switch to... and in the process started gathering a bit of info that could help OS/2 users, and inadvertantly stumbled upon a great way to help all os/2 users w/o the use of a mailing list.... i incorporated a "discussion forum" on my new website (simular to usenet only I can have total control over posts soas to eliminate spam
<mandie>	I would think that first and foremost, we define what we need in terms of the database and then find someone that is capable of providing us with that. Maintenance should be one of the considerations of the database
<tandie>	if you would like to see the mechanism of this., it's the "discussion" choice on my menu at http://alientek.ute.net
<mandie>	tandie: there are several discussion forums on the OS/2 supersite also, and they are sparsly utilized
<tandie>	and the "source" is the whole OS/2 Community
<mandie>	tandie: thx for your input :)
<warspite>	Yes, thank you
<tandie>	mandie: hehe, well now... nice to know I didnt do something wrong :) but os2ss is a poorly laid out site at best.... not easily navigateable and with TONS of bandwidth sapping ads :)
<MerlinOS2>	miningcompany/about has done a fairly good job
<mandie>	that's not our focus for today :)
<tandie>	hehe
<mandie>	back to topic of speakup :)
<tandie>	:)
<DaveW>	seems like a web site would be useful, but to provide a central repository for the warpdoctor development
<DaveW>	we should have a statement of objectives, and requirements list posted
<warspite>	Also to make it "user friendly"
<lmaxson>	WarpHoss.
<svobi>	what about Lotus Notes environment ?
<WarpHoss>	DaveW that is where we should start. A statement of objectives.
<DaveW>	i think if we publish what we're trying to do we'll get lots of interest, and sufficient "help"
<WarpHoss>	and a requirements list.
<lmaxson>	A statement of objectives.
<madodel>	tandie: a discussion list would be great for feeding info to a data repository, but by itself, it just leads to repetitive questions. I myself am tired of explaining why pp scanners don't work under OS/2 or where someone needs to go to get the IDE drivers for drives over 8.4Gig
<warspite>	Maybe OS/2 Ezine might take up the reins on their November issue?
<DaveW>	objectives should include helping the user define their problem
<lmaxson>	A statement of objectives.
<StevenL>	Mark, the repetitive questions will not change. Just the answer.
<DaveW>	hopefully the answer will be stable, too...
<lmaxson>	A statement of objectives.
<mandie>	I agree, like "Get the latest ide driver that supports larger HD's"
<Sector>	Hopefully with a central site though the questions wont need to be answered again and again, they can just look it up on the site.
<lmaxson>	A statement of objectives.
<DaveW>	lmaxson seems stuck
<Abraxas>	I'd like to remind everyone that there is a mailing list in place for discussion to take place (warpdoctor@os2voice.org). If you aren't subscribed to it, and you wish to be, you can do so at the OS/2 Supersite (http://www.os2ss.com) and click on Mailing Lists
<lmaxson>	Only on the subject at hand.
<lmaxson>	Objectives.
<DaveW>	i'd like to be able to connect to the doctor and state my problem, have it ask questions to zero in on the solution
<madodel>	Can someone smack Lynn on the head to get him going again?
<Abraxas>	lmaxson is correct ... we have to have the Objectives outlined first .... everything else comes after that
<lmaxson>	I'm willing to talk about objectives.
<lmaxson>	User Friendly.
<lmaxson>	Navigation ease.
<Ironhead>	define their problem. query the system version and posably hardware
<DaveW>	defining the prob is the hard part
<lmaxson>	One-stop shopping.
<warspite>	"plain english" replies
<DaveW>	i don't care about friendly if i get the right answer
<MerlinOS2>	dont dupe what other sites do well ...give credit and link to them
<DaveW>	...i shop at Fry's
<lmaxson>	Right answer is your objective.
<lmaxson>	Avoid duplication.
<Sector>	Friendly doesn't matter to some of us. But for others it might
<Abraxas>	DaveW but you and I are seasoned users ... a newbie might be intimidated if the site wasn't friendly
<lmaxson>	Use existing resources automatically.
<DaveW>	you can't define "friendly" very easily
<lmaxson>	Even if user friendly Dave will use it.
<DaveW>	so it's not a useful spec
<WarpHoss>	Yes. Using existing resources is fine, but I Like the idea of local storage.
<Abraxas>	Setup different levels of support ... from newbie (fersh, 1st time users) to techies
<lmaxson>	Easily comprehensible.
<warspite>	Keep undue complication (Bells & whistles) to a minimum
<lmaxson>	Obvious actions.
<DaveW>	if you don't have local resources you lose quality control on the data
<lmaxson>	Simple steps for beginnings.
<lmaxson>	Use local resources.
<DaveW>	i think if we follow the doctor paragigm (somebody had to say it) we'll be on to something
<lmaxson>	Quality control.
<lmaxson>	How about the Doctor's Office?
<lmaxson>	That's what you visit.
<DaveW>	i go to the doctor, my foot hurts, don't have a clue why.
<Projects>	and wait and wait and wait...
<lmaxson>	You go to his office.
<DaveW>	doctor rund diags, asks questions, gives me a pill
<madodel>	Do you have insurance?
<DaveW>	or cuts it off or whatever
<warspite>	How will quality be monitored?
<lmaxson>	What's the objective here.
<lmaxson>	What's the objective in a visit?
<DaveW>	actually, insurance is something we should consider. will this be a free service? will we need funding support?
<madodel>	Get the patient out of the office
<lmaxson>	Paying for service--objective.
<DaveW>	get the patient fixed and out of the office
<Projects>	and bill an hour for the 5 minute visit :p
<lmaxson>	Fast response.
<DaveW>	at least initially we'd have to be free to develop a following
<warspite>	Quality monitoring importance escalates when fees are involved
<lmaxson>	Complete solution.
<shyguy>	hello all
<Abraxas>	Objective, as I see it, is to get to the "patient" as quickly as possible and "find out why it hurts"
<lmaxson>	Stay with the objectives.
<Abraxas>	Then ... fix it
<lmaxson>	Reduce waiting time.
<DaveW>	i think it's foregone that we'll use the internet as primary interface?
<lmaxson>	Proper self-diagnoses.
<lmaxson>	Working cure.
<WarpHoss>	I think so DaveW.
<Abraxas>	DaveW yep
<DaveW>	i don't think we intend to buy trucks or anything
<WarpHoss>	Not in the beginning.
<lmaxson>	Use the internet.
<lmaxson>	Objectives, people, objectives.
<DaveW>	so that's a fundamental requirement
<lmaxson>	Use the internet.
<DaveW>	will we expect the user to know what he needs?
<DaveW>	or do we expect to assist with the diagnosis?
<warspite>	proper self diagnosis is input quality
<WarpHoss>	No DaveW The average user may not know.
<DaveW>	i recommend we include diagnosis support as a fundamental requreiemt
<warspite>	yes
<lmaxson>	Offer self-instruction.
<lmaxson>	Objectives deal with "what" not "how".
<DaveW>	diagnosis is a what
<warspite>	and the inevitability of an answer
<lmaxson>	Include diagnostic support is an objective.
<DaveW>	we provide it or not. how comes later
<lmaxson>	WarpHoss, what objectives have we set so far?
<WarpHoss>	Diagnostic Support.
<lmaxson>	Has anyone besides me ever worked for IBM?
<DaveW>	..who is willing to admit it?
<WarpHoss>	Local Resources.
<DaveW>	internet interface
<warspite>	Centralised data repository?
<DaveW>	should we assume it's for os2 support only?
<lmaxson>	By George, I think they've got it.
<WarpHoss>	Yes DaveW.
<lmaxson>	Make it an objective.
<lmaxson>	OS/2 support only.
<StevenL>	It will have to include OS/2 related hardware support.
<lmaxson>	Support OS/2 related hardware.
<warspite>	what of mirrors to places outside of USA?
<lmaxson>	Mirror external locations.
<DaveW>	yes, worldwide support should be an objective
<DaveW>	do we need to consider languages?
<StevenL>	Perhaps eventually, but if it's q&a based, not needed until volume increases.
<lmaxson>	Worldwide support.
<WarpHoss>	International Support.
<lmaxson>	Multiple language support.
<DaveW>	i suggest language be a later objective
<lmaxson>	All objectives are equal.
<Abraxas>	But an Objective, nonetheless
<DaveW>	ok
<WarpHoss>	To be implemented as soon as it is practical.
<Abraxas>	We can prioritize the Objectives ... once they've been established
<WarpHoss>	Diagnostic Support Local Resources Internet Interface OS/2 Support Only OS/2 Hardware Support International Support Multiple Language Support
<DaveW>	everyone sit down... my "big objective" is to automate the diagnosis
<WarpHoss>	Automate the diagnosis is reasonable.
<warspite>	Thanks for allowing me to take part. It's 0140, and I gotta go.
<DaveW>	that may be hard to do initially, but i believe it's a valid objective
<Abraxas>	I always figured on automating the diagnosis
<Abraxas>	DaveW it will get easier as the system grows
<DaveW>	if we state it up front, it will give us something to shoot for
<Ironhead>	add answers to data
<lmaxson>	If we state any objective, it will give us something to shoot for.
<DaveW>	also add questions to data
<WarpHoss>	We want the whole process as automated as possible, without affecting quality.
<DaveW>	we should include analysis of the probs, focus on the common ones
<lmaxson>	Can we agree on the objectives?
<DaveW>	i think we are
<lmaxson>	What we want to see.
<WarpHoss>	Diagnostic Support Local Resources Internet Interface OS/2 Support Only OS/2 Hardware Support International Support Multiple Language Support Automate the Diagnosis
<lmaxson>	There is a list of objectives.
<lmaxson>	Do you have more to add?
<lmaxson>	Stay focused.
<DaveW>	i think the "add data" and "add questions" represents a fundamental objective of maintenance
<lmaxson>	Permit adding of data.
<lmaxson>	Permit adding of questions.
<lmaxson>	Have any more?
<DaveW>	more than permit -- encourage
<lmaxson>	encourange adding of data.
<lmaxson>	encourage adding of questions.
<lmaxson>	Have any more.
<DaveW>	it appears that difficulty of maintenance was pharmacy's downfall
<lmaxson>	Not an objective.
<lmaxson>	Low maintenance is an objective.
<WarpHoss>	Low/Automated Maintenance
<lmaxson>	Have we come to the end of objectives?
<DaveW>	low maintenance COST should be, but high maintenance effort should also be
<lmaxson>	low maintenance cost
<DaveW>	i think we have enough to start with. we can revisit them as needed
<lmaxson>	high maintenance effort
<lmaxson>	What does the group think?
<lmaxson>	Are we ready to cut off additions?
<DaveW>	we'll probably get smarter as we go along. just remember that requirements costs increase as the program proceeds
<lmaxson>	Seems we could use a voting mechanism.
<WarpHoss>	Diagnostic Support Local Resources Internet Interface OS/2 Support Only OS/2 Hardware Support International Support Multiple Language Support Automate the Diagnosis Permit/Encourage Adding Data Permit/Encourage adding of questions
<lmaxson>	Provide realtime voting mechanism.
<lmaxson>	Particularly for chat sessions.
<DaveW>	can we put them in prose an post it on the "WarpDoctor Web Site"?
<Abraxas>	Permit additions to and restructuring of the Objectives and the system as needed (Future)
<Abraxas>	?
<lmaxson>	Yes.
<DaveW>	we need to establish a config control board to control requirements shifts
<DaveW>	next step would be to start developing a functional requirements statement
<lmaxson>	What?
<lmaxson>	config control board?
<lmaxson>	requirement shifts?
<DaveW>	human nature
<lmaxson>	To do what?
<DaveW>	the project will mutate, probably lose control quickly, unless you take steps to control it
<lmaxson>	First you start with self-control.
<WarpHoss>	Effective Control Policy is an objective.
<lmaxson>	VOICE is the controller.
<lmaxson>	This is a VOICE project.
<DaveW>	VOICE is not a human, not subject to human failings
<lmaxson>	I assume that WarpHoss has the lead in this.
<lmaxson>	WarpHoss is a human.
<lmaxson>	Just has a strange name.
<lmaxson>	Typical for southerners.
<mandie>	<--- or those with a southern heritage :)
<lmaxson>	Although hoss is common here in the west.
<DaveW>	ultimately we need a team to ge this done,
<lmaxson>	Form a team.
<DaveW>	the team will need direction and control
<lmaxson>	Another objective.
<WarpHoss>	Direction are the objectives.
<lmaxson>	Establish direction
<lmaxson>	Estabish control.
<lmaxson>	WarpHoss, you have your hands full.
<WarpHoss>	No doubt.
<lmaxson>	Can you list the objectives some place wherein we could flesh them out with our comments?
<lmaxson>	I don't believe you are responsible for understanding our remarks.
<lmaxson>	I think we are.
<DaveW>	i think a web site would be ideal to focus on this
<lmaxson>	Do we have a website?
<DaveW>	also good for publicising it
<WarpHoss>	Let's use my ISP account.
<WarpHoss>	temporariliy
<Abraxas>	VOICE has the lead on this ... but we are looking at a cooperative, community effort to implement it ... perhaps a committee could be formed?
<Abraxas>	I can get a website from BMT for this
<mandie>	I would suggest a permanant site and I'm almost positive that bmt would provide us with that
<lmaxson>	All those in favor say "aye".
<DaveW>	ok, but i think it would be good to get it under the os2voice.com domain
<WarpHoss>	That's what I meant by Temporarily.
<Abraxas>	Thomas has already promised anything we need
<lmaxson>	Does that make it a done deal.
<DaveW>	we need to flesh this out into a spec, and prelim design and cost estimates
<lmaxson>	What notification process will we use?
<WarpHoss>	os2voice.com/WarpDoctor
<DaveW>	the mailing list
<lmaxson>	Makes sense to me.
<WarpHoss>	Yers. the mailing list is a good idea.
<lmaxson>	Anyone not follow this?
<Abraxas>	Use the mailing list ... that's what it's there for :-)
<lmaxson>	Which mailing list?
<DaveW>	warpdoc
<WarpHoss>	!ask WarpDoctor
<lmaxson>	That has a strange means of subscription.
<Abraxas>	I'll get an e-mail to Thomas immediately about setting up the www.warpdoctor.os2voice.org
<VoiceBot>	[WarpDoctor] Revival of the Warp Pharmacy ... http://mailer.falcon-net.net:8080/guest/RemoteListSummary/warpdoctor (Abraxas)
<DaveW>	a note of urgency - we have opportunities coming up at ws europe and atlanta to promote this
<DaveW>	i think we can generate a lot of excitement with tis
<WarpHoss>	Isn't this project a natural extension of the proposed organization?
<DaveW>	also can probably expect to get more volunteers than we can handle
<lmaxson>	WarpHoss can make it part of his presentation.
<Abraxas>	DaveW I considered doing a BOF session at WS99 if I can get a few more users interested in helping with it .... I'll be busy enough that weekend that I can't do it myself
<lmaxson>	Do you think we can get an IBM moderator?
<DaveW>	i'll bet we can get some interest if we promote it a little
<lmaxson>	Maybe Rollin's father.
<mandie>	Mike Persell?
<DaveW>	ibm moderator would be a conflict of interest
<Abraxas>	mandie now why didn't I think of that :-)
<lmaxson>	Anyone that can make you stick to the subject.
<DaveW>	we're competing with their service business
<StevenL>	Har.
<lmaxson>	An IBM moderator would insist that you stick to the subject or shut up.
<mandie>	lmaxson: you got the position of moderator!
<Abraxas>	lmaxson Tim Sipples is VERY interested in this project .... but he won't be in Atlanta
<lmaxson>	I'm joking in part.
<lmaxson>	I would be happy to moderate it.
<mandie>	Abraxas: it's not interest that's required here, but the ability to keep the bof on topic
<lmaxson>	As a former IBMer I will guarantee that.
<Abraxas>	I was alluding to IBMs interest .... Tim really likes it
<mandie>	lmaxson: would you go to the warpstock site and sign up for the BOF session?
<lmaxson>	You don't understand what a training period it was.
<Abraxas>	I've been keeping him updated, privately, as he hasn't the time to read the list :-)
<lmaxson>	Yes, mandie, I will do that. Should I pick a subject as well?
<mandie>	yes, please..as appealing as possible :)
<lmaxson>	Well, I knew you would throw a wrench into it.
<lmaxson>	Appealing is not my forte.
<mandie>	I would say let your imagination run wild...but I won't :)
<WarpHoss>	The BOF session should be after my presentation.
<WarpHoss>	Not during please.
<lmaxson>	We will avoid conflicts.
<mandie>	agreed, and it should be announced at your session
<lmaxson>	Are no BOFs scheduled after meeting hours?
<Blackbird>	not to be negative but,,,there is an important issue that is going to present itself come the year 2000......IBM's notice that no further support will be free....all updates will need a SOFTWARE CHOICE LICENCE.....this will impact on what can be
<mandie>	no, ppl are just to tired by the end of the day
<Blackbird>	given out as free...drivers etc
<WarpHoss>	http://www.rbdc.com/~abelmcc5/WarpDoctor_objectives.txt
<Abraxas>	Blackbird that's not going to affect this project
<lmaxson>	Blackbird, you ought to give that a chance to settle down.
<mandie>	blackbird: I agree that this was not good news...but, there will still be many of us that will continue to use OS/2 despite IBM :)
<WarpHoss>	That only enhances our opportunity.
<lmaxson>	Changes are in the making. We want to offer our input to them.
<madodel>	My understanding is that fixpaks and drivers will remain free
<lmaxson>	I think your understanding is correct.
<madodel>	Mike Kaply has stated that updates to Comm/2 4.61 will remain free
<DaveW>	warpdoctor isn't interested in how they pay for their perscriptions, just making sure they have the right prescriptions
<mandie>	peronally, I see IBM's increased interest and support of WEW and Warpstock as a point for our side
<madodel>	It is the new, so far unnamed browser that will be on SWC
<lmaxson>	We may even have a replacement of our own by then.
<lmaxson>	Do not allow the opposing attorneys to argue your case.
<DaveW>	will we do other things to promote this? any opportunityes to develop interest in europe?
<DaveW>	can we get a brochure or such distributed at ws europe?
<WarpHoss>	We should take assistance and energy from wherever we can!
<Abraxas>	DaveW I've already been in contact with os2.org in Germany ... they are interested in at least mirroring the site if not working with us. It goes FAR beyond what they are doing ... and they have no manpower to implement this by themselves
<Abraxas>	WSE is today ... be a little tough, now
<DaveW>	if we can summarize this project on 8x11, and can find a contact, we can get some publicity
<Abraxas>	I can have a WS99 Press Release issued regarding the BOF session :-)
<DaveW>	at least get someone there to announce that we're working on it
<DaveW>	that would be good
<mandie>	abraxas: I'd rephrase that to, you will suggest to the PR committee :)
<mandie>	of course VOICE can issue their own announcement
<DaveW>	planning ahead, possi is planning a conference next spring. can we expect to have a session on this there? roll out?
<Abraxas>	mandie Oh, yeah .... I'll Suggest it to the PR committee :-)
<WarpHoss>	Good idea DaveW.
<Abraxas>	DaveW it would indeed be nice to have this ready for "roll out" by next spring :-)
<DaveW>	and how about soliciting support. is this entirely voice people and funding or do we want to encourage outside support?
<DaveW>	e.g., is there anything other user groups can do to support?
<WarpHoss>	Outside support Coordinated by VOICE is an option we should consider.
*	Abraxas is counting on outside support *
<mandie>	definetly
<WarpHoss>	DaveW> they can assist in reaching the objectives.
<DaveW>	then, what support should we be hoping for/asking for from, say, SCOUG?
<lmaxson>	WarpHoss, have we achieve what you wanted to get out of this session?
<mandie>	VOICE has never been a membership only group...we share :)
<DaveW>	i think we've nailed the objectives, started the promotion, need to start working project - functional requirements, prelim design, budget
<WarpHoss>	We are working on it lmaxson. I have been at this stage before.
<lmaxson>	Do you need more time today?
<WarpHoss>	I'm here for the duration.
<lmaxson>	I have requested a BOF at WarpStock after your presentation. We'll see what develops.
<WarpHoss>	I think Functional requirements is something we could discuss.
<DaveW>	having been at this stage before points out that we need to use project disciplines to keep things on track
<WarpHoss>	yes.
<lmaxson>	At least we need self-discipline.
<madodel>	At some point we will have to have some sort of design to implment the objectives. Who will do this?
<lmaxson>	Do you want to consider the functional requirements for each objective in turn?
<lmaxson>	Mark, I would suggest that follows after the functional requirements.
<WarpHoss>	Really good question madodel.
<lmaxson>	It is only a difinitive question when you know what is required.
<lmaxson>	Or what is expected.
<lmaxson>	The objectives themselves need refinement and organization.
<WarpHoss>	DaveW> What specific project disciplines you have in mind?
<WarpHoss>	lmaxson yes they do.
<DaveW>	we should document the process, the requirements, the designs, fairly rigorously
<DaveW>	have frequent reviews
<DaveW>	develop a schedule and budget
<DaveW>	assign work to team members
<WarpHoss>	IS there A "best method" to get started in that direction?
<DaveW>	2 general approaches
<DaveW>	the "waterfall model" says you write specs, build it and test it
<DaveW>	a prototyping model says you start with spec, build a little, try it out, modify the spec and rebuild
<DaveW>	waterfall works well to keep things on track, but for long projects the requirements tend to shift, which is expensive
<DaveW>	prototyping is faster, but you need to have a fairly clear view of what you want to begin with else it gets expensive, too
<lmaxson>	Dave, are you not discussing software development.
<DaveW>	i recommend a prototyping approach
<DaveW>	sure we are
<WarpHoss>	So the Team would consist of anyone on the warpdoctor list.
<lmaxson>	When did the Warp Doctor become software.
<StevenL>	When was it not?
<DaveW>	there will probably be folks on the list who don't want to support, but are interested in following it
<lmaxson>	StevenL, it was not and is not at this stage.
<DaveW>	but hopefully all the actual team will be on the list, too
<WarpHoss>	It's part SW/Part People.
<lmaxson>	We are still in the requirements and specification stage.
<lmaxson>	Long before the construction stage.
<lmaxson>	We haven't done analysis.
<DaveW>	yes, but the result will obviously be a system of hardware and software and communications
<lmaxson>	We haven't done design.
<StevenL>	Lynn, I was not asking in that context...
<lmaxson>	Don't presume the results.
<StevenL>	We are not even at the requirments stage yet.
<lmaxson>	First rule of analysis.
<lmaxson>	Right.
<DaveW>	we won't rule out subspace mind links
<lmaxson>	You got it.
<lmaxson>	I can show you how that works.
<DaveW>	but i expect someone is going to have to code some sql, html, rexx, maybe come clips
<lmaxson>	Why.
<lmaxson>	Why not simple drag and drop?
<DaveW>	no other way to present the data
<StevenL>	Or as Lynn says, who knows yet?
<DaveW>	drag and drop requires software
<StevenL>	He is correct. We are at the wishlist stage.
<lmaxson>	We do not know. Nor should we limit ourselves at this point.
<lmaxson>	We are just forming this thing into some kind of shape.
<WarpHoss>	We need an effective process and an effective leader for our team. What resources can we call on?
<lmaxson>	When we think we know what we want.
<lmaxson>	Who wants to be on the team. The team can select a leader, or at least a moderator.
<WarpHoss>	ok.
<lmaxson>	I will volunteer to be on the team.
<lmaxson>	Set up a means, maybe as simple as a mailing list, for volunteers.
<madodel>	SDD/2 Bet 7 is now out - ftp://ftp.scitechsoft.com/sdd/beta/os2/sdd-os2-7.0.0-b7.zip
<WarpHoss>	!ask WarpDoctor
<VoiceBot>	[WarpDoctor] Revival of the Warp Pharmacy ... http://mailer.falcon-net.net:8080/guest/RemoteListSummary/warpdoctor (Abraxas)
<lmaxson>	Mark, it will be interesting to see what they ship me.
<lmaxson>	I'm sorry, I should have made that remark offline.
<StevenL>	Question...
<Abraxas>	StevenL yes?
<StevenL>	How does this all relate to the WarpDoctor work in progress?
<Abraxas>	This *IS* the Warpdoctor "work in progress"
<StevenL>	What happened to all the DB work that has been done so far? Scrapped until a design is in place? Or what?
<WarpHoss>	The originator of that pulled it.
<StevenL>	So this a a restart?
<Abraxas>	StevenL scrapped due to loss of the original volunteer(s)
<Abraxas>	Yes ....
<Abraxas>	Restart
<WarpHoss>	I have the original DBF and web page but noe of the java code.
<StevenL>	New team. New goals. etc. etc?
<StevenL>	I see, but only time will tell if it's scrap?
<Abraxas>	BTW .. Dirk Terrel, who was one of the original members of the team, has relocated, but is still interested in the project, and is still subscribed to the list
<lmaxson>	StevenL, what is your concern?
<StevenL>	The list has been almost dead as far as I can tell. Or am I missing messages?
<StevenL>	Just want some context.
<WarpHoss>	Yes pretty much... I will post all that to the WarpDoctor list.
<WarpHoss>	The list has been dead.
<Abraxas>	StevenL No ... the list has been _non-active_
<WarpHoss>	ok -nonactive.
<lmaxson>	I think we are starting anew.
<Abraxas>	But it's still inplace, so it isn't dead ... it just "lacks life" :-)
<StevenL>	Lynn, I'm not concerned. Just trying to understand why we are here.
<madodel>	moribund?
<lmaxson>	I think WarpHoss has the lead in this. We are here because we in SCOUG thought it was needed at this time.
<Abraxas>	lmaxson is correct ... we're pretty much starting from the beginning ... but this time with a much better outlook, and with more active supporters
<StevenL>	Lynn, I agree it's needed. There's way too much duplication of effort...
<StevenL>	Hopefully this will reduce rather than increase the duplication.
<Abraxas>	StevenL this is our hope ..... while there *is* a lot of duplication, there is a lot of good information. We hope to both incorporate all of the good info as well as provide new info, and an interface by which anyone can access it, regardless of their level of experience with OS/2
<WarpHoss>	We are here to put this project back on the road to completion.
<lmaxson>	We certainly can use input from Mr. Know-It-All.
<StevenL>	Abraxas, I would state it a bit differently. There's a lot of good data. Not that much information.
<lmaxson>	Information is data in context.
<StevenL>	I'm willing to assist in the development if I believe the goals can be implemented. That's why I am here.
<StevenL>	Lynn, that's the point. Data is hard to use.
<lmaxson>	Are we missing an objective then?
<lmaxson>	We can use your experience in communicating to users.
<StevenL>	No, you appear to have objectives. The question is are you ready to develop requirements?
<lmaxson>	Ready when you are.
<WarpHoss>	So you saw the objectives I posted to the web ten StevenL?
<WarpHoss>	ten=then.
<lmaxson>	But I do believe we need a rest period just to review the objectives.
<StevenL>	Agreed.
<StevenL>	WH, I don't think so. What's the URL?
<WarpHoss>	http://www.rbdc.com/~abelmcc5/WarpDoctor_objectives.txt for now that is where they are.
<StevenL>	!ask Warpdoctor
<DaveW>	i'm about out of time for today. i suggest we continue this in a series of meetings like this
<VoiceBot>	[Warpdoctor] Revival of the Warp Pharmacy ... http://mailer.falcon-net.net:8080/guest/RemoteListSummary/warpdoctor (Abraxas)
<WarpHoss>	Sure DaveW.
<DaveW>	and we should all be liberal in our use of the list
<mandie>	StevenL: will you be in atlanta?
<DaveW>	keep those cards and letters coming
<StevenL>	Has anyone set up a structure to reply on the objectives? Where? How?
<WarpHoss>	!ask WarpDoctor
<VoiceBot>	[WarpDoctor] Revival of the Warp Pharmacy ... http://mailer.falcon-net.net:8080/guest/RemoteListSummary/warpdoctor (Abraxas)
<StevenL>	Mandie, I don't think so....
<madodel>	We should post them to the mail list
<StevenL>	May change my mind last minute. Real life has me buried.
<madodel>	Should VOICE also post them on our web site?
<lmaxson>	Would this be worth a SIG in SCOUG?
<DaveW>	rollin needs a topic for programming sig this month
<lmaxson>	Or worthy of our regularly scheduled help-desk on Mondays?
<DaveW>	whoops .. not software
<lmaxson>	You got it, Dave.
<DaveW>	i think we'll find the scoug programmer sig will have some useful input
<lmaxson>	It's what programming often overlooks. That's why they have a better than 70% failure rate.
<StevenL>	Yep. Code first, design later.
<WarpHoss>	yes madodel.... os2voice.org/WarpDoctor
<lmaxson>	:)
<StevenL>	Analysis says you ask the user's what they want, not the implementor's. Right, Lynn?
<lmaxson>	Like Dave I have to go shortly.
<lmaxson>	Maybe we can continue this on Monday on #scoug.
<StevenL>	OK. It's been otherwise light.
<DaveW>	that's why we need to promote this at ws e and a, to get user involvement
<StevenL>	DaveW, I disagree...
<lmaxson>	Cart before the horse.
<StevenL>	Yep.
<lmaxson>	If you got nothing to pull, why pull it.
<StevenL>	Yep/2.
<DaveW>	...so...you DON'T want to know what the users need?
<StevenL>	Publish the objectives and ask for comments...
<lmaxson>	That's not stated in our objectives.
<lmaxson>	?
<lmaxson>	I am not looking to get overwhelmed at the moment.
<DaveW>	no one is. that's why we need a team
<StevenL>	A team of users?
<lmaxson>	We are not defining user needs, only a means of meeting them.
<StevenL>	Are you assuming we understand the user's needs?
<DaveW>	assuming we know what they are
<lmaxson>	I assume their needs are dynamic as mine are.
<StevenL>	I assume they are relatively simple too.
<lmaxson>	If the means adapts to the dynamics, I assume the needs will arise on their own.
<lmaxson>	I don't have to seek them out.
<lmaxson>	You come in with a question. That sets a need.
<lmaxson>	You hope that someone else has asked it before you.
<lmaxson>	Eventually you grow from a low service level to one with a high reputation.
<lmaxson>	All along the way they will know your overriding interest in answering their question.
<lmaxson>	That's the trick.
<StevenL>	This is all true, but I don't this it's the question Dave was asking.
<StevenL>	it's -> is
<lmaxson>	Dave's question?
<StevenL>	Yes.
<lmaxson>	I thought it related to determining user needs.
<StevenL>	Yes, but in the context of now, not after the system exists.
<lmaxson>	Well, the system starts at zero.
<lmaxson>	All systems do.
<DaveW>	my last comment referred to promoting this at ws, looking for user involvement as well as soliciting volunteers to build ... well, whatever
<lmaxson>	If you are talking pre-knowledge, then look at existing questions.
<StevenL>	Build? How about design?
<DaveW>	of course, but hopefully eventually we'll build something
<lmaxson>	We are going to promote this at WS.
<lmaxson>	That's already been initiated.
<lmaxson>	At least two presentations, one by WarpHoss and another a BOF.
<StevenL>	From my POV, there's been a ton of promotion already.
<DaveW>	not for doctor
<lmaxson>	We do not suffer from the lack of promotion.
<StevenL>	There's been at least a dozen recent postings here an there on the lists.
<lmaxson>	As evidence we, look at the nickname list, are here.
<Abraxas>	lmaxson for this to work efficiently and expediently, we need 10X this number interested
<DaveW>	so, warphoss, will you let us know when we have a home page up?
<DaveW>	i assume the ~abelmcc5 page for now
<lmaxson>	Abraxas, I have designed and implemented far larger projects with far fewer participants.
<StevenL>	Ab, why?
<DaveW>	soon to be os2voice/warpdoctor?
<lmaxson>	You give me one Robert Chapman or one Robert Blair and you are almost overstaffed.
<DaveW>	full time?
<DaveW>	great!!
<DaveW>	when will they start?
<StevenL>	After the design is done?
<lmaxson>	How many do we need for design, or analysis, or specification to take them in reverse order?
<DaveW>	i gotta go. looking forward to this!
<lmaxson>	If we need more than three, we got a problem.
<StevenL>	See ya
<WarpHoss>	Yes I will keep the WarpDocotr list posted.
<StevenL>	Lynn, too early to know. I could guess, but I'd rather not...
*	Blackbird as well.....snow needs shovelling *
<StevenL>	I do have some suggestion that my induce progress.
<StevenL>	my -> may.
<lmaxson>	Well, why not save it for Monday?
<StevenL>	OK.
<Sector>	Blackbird: Try some hot peppers and use your breath to melt the snow
<lmaxson>	I think we are chatted out here.
<mandie>	I would like to see them today and they can be a part of this log for ppl to mull over and then discuss Monday
<Blackbird>	snowed out here....
<lmaxson>	WarpHoss needs a little time to get use to our western ways.
<StevenL>	Votes, anyone? :)
<mandie>	aye for today
<lmaxson>	No comment.
<StevenL>	No nays. :)
<StevenL>	OK...
<mandie>	you go StevenL! :)
<lmaxson>	Bye, folks.
<StevenL>	First simple stuff. The Webpage needs a Netmind button...
<mandie>	bye lynn
<mandie>	to notify ppl of updates
<Blackbird>	see you monday...
<StevenL>	Second, as the objectives are updated, they should be republished to the mailing list for comment.
<StevenL>	This will invite action.
<WarpHoss>	Diagnostic Support Local Resources Internet Interface OS/2 Support Only OS/2 Hardware Support International Support Multiple Language Support Automate the Diagnosis Permit/Encourage Adding Data Permit/Encourage adding of questions
<mandie>	question
<StevenL>	Hopefully, more than just comments that "it's a good idea". :)
<StevenL>	Yes.
<WarpHoss>	mandie question?
<mandie>	shouldn't the objectives, as updated, be posted for comments prior to publishing on the website?
<WarpHoss>	I have already posted them to the list.
<Sector>	That could work
<mandie>	warphoss: I saw those, I'm referring to future updated objections
<StevenL>	Either way. Really does not matter.
<Abraxas>	I've e-mailed Thomas requesting the URL warpdoctor.os2voice.org
<WarpHoss>	Low Maintenance Cost High Maitenance Effort Effective Control Policy Form a team Establish direction
<StevenL>	These are bullet items. They need to be prioritized and defined so everybody reads them the same way. Then it's on to requirements.
<WarpHoss>	StevenL yes.
<StevenL>	Also, Lynn did not state this, but...
<StevenL>	A requirement is not a requirment unless you can validate it...
<StevenL>	This means you can't have a requirement that you can't verify...
<StevenL>	This is the hard part of converting objectives to requirements.
<WarpHoss>	I am not about to argue that.
<WarpHoss>	Did everyone here find the warpDoctor list?
<WarpHoss>	And signup?
<Zoltan>	Not yet
<WarpHoss>	!ask WarpDoctor
<VoiceBot>	[WarpDoctor] Revival of the Warp Pharmacy ... http://mailer.falcon-net.net:8080/guest/RemoteListSummary/warpdoctor (Abraxas)
*	Sector got signed up when it was first created... *
<StevenL>	WarpHoss, you might want to ship out "I'm alive" messages so other's can check their signups.
<WarpHoss>	ok.
<StevenL>	I am receiving it. :)
<StevenL>	I've got to step away for a few minutes. bbiab.
<madodel>	Any1 seen any display problems with FP12?
<WarpHoss>	I haven't applied it.
<madodel>	In InCharge a portion of the right side of some screens is missing and the screens aren't resizable
<madodel>	Ah I fixed it by reseting all the fonts to defaults
<StevenL>	I'm back. Filled the cat.
<WarpHoss>	ok wb StevenL
<StevenL>	?
*	WarpHoss had to stir the chili *
<Sector>	Maybe WarpHoss should have fed the chili to the cat
<StevenL>	The cat gets anything she will eat. In the past chili was not on her favorites list. She did like bird feathers.
<StevenL>	I really did mean fill. Used a needle.
<WarpHoss>	eeew.
<WarpHoss>	Seems that everyone got quiet.
<StevenL>	It's not that big a needle. It the 100 mil of fluids that gets her attention.
<StevenL>	Dave's gone. :)
<WarpHoss>	:)
<StevenL>	Along with the other instigators.
<StevenL>	I just plan on assisting.
<Zoltan>	I will leave now, not for showeling snow, I have to cut the grass.
*	JoSt wonders if he is the only one not able to get MySQL running:( *
<StevenL>	There must be others. :)
<WarpHoss>	I will be lurking for now I must get back to work on WarpStock.
<StevenL>	OK. See ya.
<StevenL>	JoSt, what's failing?
<JoSt>	I can't write to the user table of the MySQL database!
<JoSt>	Error 24 or something like it!
<StevenL>	Permissions? Let me see what a 24 resolves to in IBM-ese.
<JoSt>	I think the Error code is from MySQL!
<JoSt>	The problem is that the user table is where you set the permissions:(
<StevenL>	I'm sure it is, but it might just parrot what the system call returns...
<JoSt>	Ah!
<StevenL>	24 means bad request table length. Not likely. What does mySQL say about 24?
<JoSt>	A Chinken and the Egg kind of thing!
<StevenL>	I'd guess you are not the adminstrator. :(
*	JoSt is starting the Server ... *
<StevenL>	That is a slow sever...
<StevenL>	Ooops Freudian slip. Server...
<JoSt>	Had to delete an old install and unzip... two secs. :)
<StevenL>	JoSt, not unzip 5.30, I hope.
*	JoSt uses "UnZip 5.31 of 31 May 1997" *
<StevenL>	Does that version fix the unshrink problem?
<JoSt>	unshrink problem?
<JoSt>	This is the error from the server: "ERROR 1016: Can't open file: 'user.ISM'. (errno: 24)" !!!
<StevenL>	That's a unix errno. Hold on...
<JoSt>	the table show up when I issue "show tables \g" !
<StevenL>	24 is access. There's something wrong with the path specification.
<StevenL>	What's the drive type? FAT or HPFS?
<JoSt>	Hmmm. When I do the same select on the host table it just returns: "Empty set (0.10 sec)" and they are both in the MySQL DB !!!
<JoSt>	HPFS
<StevenL>	OK. What directory is user.ism in?
<JoSt>	[C:\programmer\mysql2\data\mysql]
<JoSt>	I've also tried "[C:\mysql2\data\mysql]"
<StevenL>	OK. Is that the current directory?
<StevenL>	Long names should not be a problem for GNU stuff.
<JoSt>	no, current is c:\programmer\mysql2\bin
<StevenL>	JoSt, earlier you said "write to". Did you mean read?
<StevenL>	Change to mysql and try it again.
<JoSt>	I can do neither... At first I thought it failed because the table was empty so I tried to insert something but got the same error!
<StevenL>	I need a few details. What are you using to write to the user.ism? SQL statements? Is user.ism a normal mySQL table?
<JoSt>	Same error!
<JoSt>	I use the MySQL Client (mysql.exe)! trying "SELECT * FROM USER\g"
<StevenL>	I gotta go for a while. Sorry to leave you hanging...
<JoSt>	It's ok :)
<StevenL>	Most DB's have some sort of DBPATH env var
<StevenL>	which tells is where to find the tables.
<StevenL>	I'd hunt for that.
<JoSt>	What makes me wonder is that it sees the other tables just fine !
<dallas>	anyone still there? net split? I'm not getting anything.
<JoSt>	I don't think it's a technical problem :)
<Sector>	Just nobody saying anything
<TonyB>	Hi dallas. I just joined
<JoSt>	Just good old fashioned silence:)
<Sector>	A netsplit would show up as anyone on the other side of the split leaving the channel
<mandie>	TonyB!!! welcome :)
<mandie>	netsplits are rare on these servers
<dallas>	Ok, I'm relatively new to IRC, only a few months.
<TonyB>	Gee, is everyone done talking about the Warpdoctor project? I was curious as to what it is.
<JoSt>	mandie: That's probably because we are all on the same:)
<mandie>	dallas!!! it's you! :)
<dallas>	didn't recognize me?
<mandie>	JoSt: not me, I'm almost always on my own server
<Sector>	Nope everyone isn't on the same server
<Sector>	Same here
<mandie>	dallas: others have used the nick dallas, but I see now who you are :)
<JoSt>	OK, Those of us without a server uses the main hub :)
<dallas>	I really am dallas. :-)_
<mandie>	dallas: I know :) will you be at Warpstock this year?
<Sector>	Hmmm, my server currently has 4 users (including myself) on it, guess everyone isn't using the main hub...
<mandie>	"main" hub for california :)
<dallas>	No. :-(. I only got some work in June, am here in Phoenix temp., disorganized being away from home in Downey, CA
<mandie>	bummer :(
<mandie>	well, practice up on your IRC! VOICE will have a booth specifically used for ppl to IRC during WS99
<Sector>	Well, not actually a hub, but tends to be used a lot by those in Southern California
<mandie>	also used to interview some of the attendees
<dallas>	that I can pull off.
<mandie>	great :)
<dallas>	I don't have a laptop yet, Dan H., a hardware tech here was gracious enough to put a PC together with some swag parts.
<dallas>	It's kept me connected.
<dallas>	everyone's quiet again. I CAN'T STAND THE SILENCE!!!! :-)
<Sector>	Turn up the volume
<dallas>	I quess everyone is busy with Sat. afternoon chores & stuff?
<dallas>	quess -> guess
<Sector>	I guess it could be
*	JoSt is busy with MySQL problems *
<dallas>	found the enviromental variable (I think it was) StevenL suggested?
<JoSt>	dallas: I found another env.variable that seems to have solved the problem:)
<Sector>	Good
<JoSt>	dallas: It was en EMX parameter ( increasing the number of file handles)!
<Sector>	(even if it was the wrong one...)
<mandie>	anyone have a log from last night's session?
<WarpHoss>	yes,
<StevenL>	JoSt, I see you fixed it.
<mandie>	plz post :)
<Sector>	What was last night?
*	JoSt is embarrased to say that the solution was in the docs under the title "OS/2 Notes" **flushing** *
<WarpHoss>	Damn. I gotta cut that log now. ok mandie.
<mandie>	thank you :
<mandie>	and plz send to Mensys also
<WarpHoss>	his addy?
<mandie>	menso@mensys.nl
<WarpHoss>	ok.
<JoSt>	I hope the will be more news comping from WarpStock than from WarpStock Europe during the event....
<JoSt>	comping=coming
<JoSt>	WSE seems to have gone off-line for the weekend:(
<dallas>	What's on the log?
<dallas>	mandie, someone, is the log a secret subject?
<Abraxas>	dallas nope .... you want a copy of it?
<Abraxas>	It'll be posted on the VOICE Website in a day or so
<dallas>	no need for a copy, I just wondered what the topic(s) were.
<Abraxas>	But I'd be ahppy to e-mail you a copy of it
<Abraxas>	Warpdoctor
<dallas>	OK.
<mandie>	dallas: sorry I didn't answer, was reading email....nothing secretive at all