General VOICE Meeting - 6 November 2004
Agenda
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No Agenda was available.
Summary - Decisions/Announcements Made
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1. Roderick Klein will prepare a written proposal for the format of future meetings for discussion at the next meeting.
2. Next regularly scheduled meeting will held on the 20th of November.
Meeting Log
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Chairman of the meeting Roderick Klein called the meeting to order at 15:08:29 EST
<eCSNL> This might a historic meeting if the people present agree with the proposal...
<eCSNL> First all this meeting did get announced
<eCSNL> so I don't know if this is the proper time then to put such a proposal on the table....
<eCSNL> Let me first say I hereby declare this unannounced meeting for opened...
<WalterOS2> Roderick.. Did or did not get announced?
<eCSNL> John could you please take a log?
<Gord> Is there an agenda?
<eCSNL> It did not get announced
<JWE> Logging is started.
<MADodel> What is an "unnouched meeting"?
<MADodel> :-)
* eCSNL would like to inform everybody he has been sleeping for 13 hours last night
<WalterOS2> or an "annouched agenda"?
<eCSNL> And I still feel as if a steam roller has driven over me...
<MADodel> Someone sleeps for 13 hours?
<eCSNL> Flat :-)
<eCSNL> And not much energy...
<eCSNL> So this meeting did not get announced
<Gord> We appreciate the effort you are putting in.
<eCSNL> for which I'm sorry.
<eCSNL> So what the proposal.
<eCSNL> Well basically it's simple.
<eCSNL> The idea is to stop having IRC business meetings for VOICE.
<eCSNL> So everybody will say, well what will happen to the VOICE IRC channel?
<eCSNL> Its going to a empty place with some bodies?
<eCSNL> Well here is my comment.
<eCSNL> I want to move the business meetings to mailing list to make discussion more flexible.
<eCSNL> We would need a web archive where everybody could read the archives (with E-mail address to stop E-mail address collectors)
<eCSNL> I mean E-mail addressees removed so E-mail address collectors can not collect E-mail address for databases.
<eCSNL> Look at the people that turn up on the business meetings. Even when announced it does not attract a lot of people besides the people who are here now.
<eCSNL> We always need have an agenda finished an announce the meeting.
<eCSNL> We can vote via E-mail and discuss items and put motions forward. And it would be at prefixed dates.
<eCSNL> In exchange I would like to have one monthly meeting just like SCOUG has on IRC for OS/2 users to ask questions.
<eCSNL> In general would do you people thing about this idea?
<eCSNL> Maybe we could make VOICE members more involved if the meetings would not be at specific moments
<eCSNL> but you could read on a mailing list and post responses.
<MADodel> My guess would be that pretty much the same people would be active
<Gord> You do have a point about low attendance, but I would miss the immediacy of an IRC meeting.
<Gord> On the other hand it means I would never miss a 'meeting'.
<eCSNL> There would be an admin, me (chairman) and that is to really keep the mailing list on topic
<Gord> That would also free up my Saturday afternoons.
<Gord> But it might also mean longer lead times needed to get anything at all decided.
<eCSNL> That's up the chairman to push things in a certain direction.
<Gord> Or maybe shorter lead times since we wouldn't have to wait for an IRC meeting to discuss something.
<eCSNL> To get something done now means officially waiting for 2 weeks until a meeting can take place.
<eCSNL> MaDodel?
<eCSNL> Ken?
<eCSNL> JWE?
<eCSNL> What's your view on this?
<Gord> How would one of us get something on the discussion list?
<Gord> Would we send to directly to you first?
<KenKrchnr> I'm here
<KenKrchnr> Hang on a sec -
<eCSNL> That's up to do decide...
<eCSNL> If its sensitive so how we can always discuss things on the admin list...
<eCSNL> admin list
<MADodel> We've had several mailing lists for years which have been completely unused. I'm not sure a new list would generate much traffic, but its worth trying.
<MADodel> What would be helpful would be if there were still an IRC meeting once a month or so that people could attend and VOICE any issues, as Gord pointed out.
<MADodel> And maybe have general discussion on a mailing list.
<MADodel> Part of the problem with meetings on IRC or a mailing list is that things happen and no one tells anyone.
<Gord> For example?
<MADodel> Though I suppose if all members are on the mailing list they would get to see any decisions
<MADodel> Gord: Example of what?
<Gord> Of something happening and us not being told.
<WalterOS2> One of my complaints about the mailing lists that we use is that a new subscriber, he cannot see any messages before he subscribes.
<WalterOS2> Of course it's even worse with IRC. :-)
<Gord> Good point.
<WalterOS2> Maybe there are ways around that.
<Gord> With IRC he can join in.
<eCSNL> Well that's why I suggested that such a mailing list has a web archive so people can view the archives
<WalterOS2> But he would still see nothing before that.
<eCSNL> and search them.
<Gord> With a mailing list we'd have to know he wanted in.
<WalterOS2> eCSNL: I've never seen one of those in operation.
<MADodel> Gord: lots of things fall through the cracks. When people change positions, nothing is ever announced. Things like the server move. Just run of the mill type things.
<Gord> And we have to discuss Norman antivirus.
<eCSNL> Well look at what yahoogroups does :-)
<eCSNL> That's what I mean with a web archive..
<WalterOS2> I would still like to see a forum. They are much less likely to let things fall between the cracks, IMO.
<WalterOS2> However, Mark has always been opposed to them.
<MADodel> The member list is supposed to be updated as soon as someone joins
<WalterOS2> :-)
* MADodel still hates forums, but uses them if there is no other option
<MADodel> With a forum you are forced to go to it to find out what is going on. Same with IRC but there is usually a set date/time to do so there is some motivation.
<MADodel> With forums I just forget to check them
<eCSNL> Me to...
* WalterOS2 wonders if MADodel needs some reminders.
<eCSNL> Two things...
<eCSNL> Mensys has done it in the past
<eCSNL> We build our own system to make mailing lists readable via a web browser
<eCSNL> and searchable
<eCSNL> And getting on and off the list is also not difficult.
<WalterOS2> Would we be able to run it from our server?
<eCSNL> Guess so :-)
* eCSNL starts making a price offer $$$$ :-)
<eCSNL> We would need to dig it up it are just some REXX scripts....
<eCSNL> And Walter what you mean with :
<eCSNL> The member list is supposed to be updated as soon as someone joins
<eCSNL> You mean if you would go to www.os2voice.org
<eCSNL> and fill in your E-mail address that the mailing list subscription list gets updated instantly?
<MADodel> I would advise you to create a new member list for something like this, and keep the original list just for member announcements.
<KenKrchnr> I agree with Mark
<eCSNL> Until about a month ago we had that running on www.os2-gg.nl
<eCSNL> But his has been broken because we migrate the mail server..
<KenKrchnr> We have that running on os2voice.com, but it doesn't get used. But that is just for Admin users.
<MADodel> The other issue with this is will it be members only allowed on the maillist/forum? Or will it be open to everyone?
<KenKrchnr> IRC meetings are open to all, I would guess this would be the same. But only members vote.
<JWE> If the list is to be used to conduct the business of VOICE, it should only be open to VOICE members only to participate in the "meeting".
<JWE> A read-only function could be available to others.
<eCSNL> Via the web...
<eCSNL> I guess we could continue to discuss good and bad sides of this idea?
<eCSNL> I see people against it/ in favour and people having doubts?
<eCSNL> Maybe we should vote on this item?
* eCSNL pulls the emergency brake
<MADodel> Why not write up a proposal with details about what you want this to be?
<eCSNL> Well I have described this. I can do this if you want but I don't have much to add.
<WalterOS2> For the record, I think Roderick's plan is a good idea, if we can find a way to make people use the mailing lists (or a forum).
<eCSNL> I pulled the emergency brake simply because the question should we vote on this not announced meeting...
<MADodel> You described a general idea, but without details on how it will actually work. Hence the questions about it.
<Gord> For instance, who will set it up?
<Gord> What address will be used?
<MADodel> Now you are getting into really fine details.
<MADodel> :-)\
<MADodel> That "\" key keeps getting in the way
<Gord> Actually we should have something like the old bulletin boards.
<Gord> without the long distance charges.
<MADodel> hehehehe. I saw that AdeptBBS was just put up on hobbes.
* WalterOS2 still thinks there is a lot to be said for using the forums we already have at forums.os2voice.org.
<WalterOS2> 1. There already set up.
<WalterOS2> 2. You get me as administrator. :-)
<WalterOS2> 3. We already have the software.
<WalterOS2> OTOH the software does have some bugs. :-(
<Gord> What is the software?
<WalterOS2> Ceilidh.
<MADodel> http://www.lilikoi.com/
<WalterOS2> There is limited support (fixing bugs, etc.).
<WalterOS2> See http://www.lilikoi.com/support_ceilidh.html .
<MADodel> Didn't we pay for a 5 forum license?
<WalterOS2> Yep.
<WalterOS2> Terry used it awhile back to help teach a C++ class over the internet.
<MADodel> If we have the professional version that is supposed to have E-mail posting and notification
<WalterOS2> Ceilidh is a Web-based threaded discussion engine that features automatic
<WalterOS2> text to HTML conversion, file attachment, E-mail notification and
<WalterOS2> automatic expiration capabilities.
<WalterOS2> I'm pretty sure we do have the professional version.
<WalterOS2> I'll have to check my E-mail database.
<MADodel> But it doesn't send out an actual E-mail for each posting does it?
<WalterOS2> You can ask for that, but there are several options.
<WalterOS2> It's been awhile since I've worked with it so I'd have to look it up to be sure of all of them.
<MADodel> That would be ideal if it could handle both web posting/reading and E-mail posting/reading
<MADodel> Then everyone would live happily ever after
<MADodel> :-)
<WalterOS2> It's web-based and does retain an "archive" to which any subscriber can access.
<WalterOS2> have access.
<WalterOS2> As I recall there was a question of how to interface its E-mail capabilities to our mail system.
<WalterOS2> I would probably give Ken Ceilidh's developer's address and let them work it out.
<WalterOS2> I'm pretty sure there's no serious problem, but we didn't get to the point of serious investigation.
<KenKrchnr> It was before my time, so I don't have much info on it :-)
<KenKrchnr> I just know I fixed some configuration issues when it got moved from voice1
<MADodel> Ken is always looking for things to do ;-)
<WalterOS2> I can find out from the developer if it supports weasel and/or majormajor.
* MADodel would guess the developer has no idea what weasel or MM are
<KenKrchnr> Walter said we get him as the administrator, you miss that Mark ;-)
<MADodel> hehehe you missed where Walter will put you in touch with the developer to get the E-mail stuff working. ;-) But yes I'm sure you appreciate one less day-to-day thing to do.
<WalterOS2> You get a partial list of some of the features: http://www.lilikoi.com/features.html
<WalterOS2> I checked and ours is definitely a PROFESSIONAL licence.
<MADodel> Then E-mail should be feasible
<MADodel> With most forums though you only get an E-mail notification if someone replies to your own post.
<MADodel> Gotta go get ready for church. Sorry I have to go.
<eCSNL> I'm back now?
<Gord> Yes.
<eCSNL> My connection dropped..
<KenKrchnr> Looks like it :-)
<eCSNL> But Mozilla did not mention to me the connection
<eCSNL> was gone. So I thought I was all alone :-(
<eCSNL> So I understood I missed a lot...
<WalterOS2> Yep :-)
<Gord> On our bulletin board you wouldn't have missed anything.
<eCSNL> I don't really understand how you would miss anything with a mailing list?
<WalterOS2> ping walteros2
<Gord> Well you wouldn't but you might lose some of the pieces.
<Gord> On the forum all the contributions are there.
<Gord> And a mailing list has a 'over-quoting' problem.
<eCSNL> A yes people who quote an entire message
<eCSNL> and then type
<eCSNL> yes
<eCSNL> The thing I like about a mailing list is that its dropped in your mailbox!
<WalterOS2> It must be catching. I got dropped as well. :-(
<eCSNL> My attention is drawn to the folder in my mail client the moment a message comes in.
<WalterOS2> What were you guys talking about?
<Gord> Well, that's for you. Mine doesn't work that way.
<Gord> Walter, 'over-quoting' in E-mail.
<eCSNL> When a message comes in in pmmail
<WalterOS2> OK, thanks.
<eCSNL> Well that could be one the rules on the mailing list.
<eCSNL> If you over-quote and you get three warnings your are suspended from the list :-)
<WalterOS2> How much quoting is "over-quoting"?
<eCSNL> Its the same thing as on IRC. If you flood a channel with to much garbage some bots just filter your input...
<eCSNL> Well that is the admin receives complaints from people privately or in public from people asking if somebody could properly quote an E-mail.
<eCSNL> Ok in three weeks time there will be another IRC meeting I will write a proposal document
<eCSNL> with also clear rules for the mailing list and then see if you people approve it.
<eCSNL> I'm personally in favour of such a mailing list.
<eCSNL> But if somebody wants a forum write a proposal on that.
<eCSNL> Who puts up, that is a second matter.
<WalterOS2> Obviously :-)
<WalterOS2>
<eCSNL> But I'm certain Mensys can assist Ken in that.
<eCSNL> If he needs help.
<eCSNL> If people are in favour of a different kind of business meetings
<eCSNL> then next meeting we will vote on this
<eCSNL> and if there is more then proposal in
<eCSNL> (for lets say a web forum)
<WalterOS2> eCSNL You missed the part when even Mark was becoming enthusiastic about the Ceilidh forum software we now have.
<eCSNL> We can vote on web forum or E-mail.
<WalterOS2> Take a look at forums.os2voice.org
<eCSNL> Yes I have seen that....
<WalterOS2> All I'm saying is that I don't think we need Mensys to build us a forum, if we decide to go that way.
<eCSNL> I will like to wrap up this discussion on this topic
<eCSNL> and we will see at the next meeting
<eCSNL> I will write my proposal
<eCSNL> for a mailing list
<eCSNL> people who want a different system like a web forum write your proposal and put it on a website somewhere for the next meeting
<eCSNL> so everybody can read it.
<eCSNL> That way everybody present at the next announced meeting can read it.
<eCSNL> If there is still discussion what system we want we will just vote on it.
<Gord> I move we adjourn.
<WalterOS2> 2nd
<Gord> All in favor?
<Gord> Aye.
<WalterOS2> Aye
<KenKrchnr> Aye
<JWE> Aye
<Gord> All opposed?
<Gord> Carried.
<Gord> Meeting adjourned.
Meeting adjourned 6 November 2004 at 16:46:57 EST