VOICE - General Meeting for 2003-11-15

VOICE - General Meeting for 2003-11-15
12:07:54 <WalterOS2> This meeting of VOICE is now in session. * WalterOS2 is only late when eCSNL comes. :-) <WalterOS2> Hello Gord <Gord> Hi. <wdl> Hi Gord! <WalterOS2> Hi everyone else. <Gord> HI, wdl * WalterOS2 is trying to print the agenda. <WalterOS2> Walter's printer is being uncooperative at the moment. <WalterOS2> I turned off BIDI and disabled the spooler. <WalterOS2> It's printing now, but oh so sloowly! <WalterOS2> I think my new colour laser may have to returned for a replacement. :-( <WalterOS2> OK, we can begin at last. <WalterOS2> Agenda Item A. Old Business <WalterOS2> 1. Add my name to Help Desk. <WalterOS2> That's done as of lunch time ET. <WalterOS2> Incidentally, Roderick, I think your idea to put the help information on another page under <WalterOS2> another page, perhaps "Help Desk" is a good one. <eCSNL> Otherwhise the main page becomes a mess... <WalterOS2> Any other comments? <eCSNL> Put a link there to the timezone conerverter that is also <eCSNL> in the voice <KenKrchnr> I agree with both those suggestions. <eCSNL> annouchments <eCSNL> of the meetings... <eCSNL> I don't want to be called by somebody in California when its 18:00 in California :-) <eCSNL> BTW a status report so far I have received 0 calls that got in via the VOICE line.... <WalterOS2> There already is. <WalterOS2> a link to the TimeZone site in the meeting announcements. <WalterOS2> I'm not sure Jeremy will have much time for VOICE for awhile. He's gotten back to his first love--music. <WalterOS2> First in chronology, I mean. <WalterOS2> Ken, would you have the time to modify the website so that the help announcements are located else? <KenKrchnr> Yes, where would you like them to go? <WalterOS2> I'm still not sure of the best place to put them, but wherever we put them, let's be sure to keep a link on the front page. * WalterOS2 looks over the "Help Desk" <KenKrchnr> Help Desk looks like a prime candidate. <WalterOS2> Perhaps another page off the main Help Desk page, with a link to it in the first paragraph. How does that sound to everyone? <WalterOS2> It doesn't seem to me to fit anywhere on the main page. <eCSNL> No put it on the main page of help desk.... <eCSNL> Otherwhise people will not click on.... <eCSNL> People are lazy don't forget that :-) <WalterOS2> Well, NOBODY, has called you yet? <WalterOS2> What's the point of this service if no one uses it? <WalterOS2> Anyway, where would you like to put it? <eCSNL> When I goto <eCSNL> www.os2voice.org <WalterOS2> Perhaps I misunderstood what you were trying to say. <eCSNL> and click on "help desk" <eCSNL> My first suggestion is to scrap all of does old tips about win32s etc... <eCSNL> And create some space there... <eCSNL> And place the table there... <WalterOS2> How many people even access the Help Desk now, I wonder. I have the feeling that not used a lot. <eCSNL> Maybe because the first view you bump into gives a kind of old impression... <eCSNL> Coming here... <eCSNL> http://www.os2voice.org/help/helpdesk-q.html <eCSNL> Help for Warp 3 & 4 warp <WalterOS2> First you have to click, then view. I'm just not sure very many click on the "Help Desk" link. <eCSNL> move it to a different section... <eCSNL> We keep no track of that <eCSNL> Oke question for the web department... <eCSNL> Could we get counts how many people on average a month or week or day <eCSNL> click on that help desk link <WalterOS2> Ken: does your tracking utility tell us how many people click on the "Help Desk" now? <eCSNL> or are there no server logs ? <KenKrchnr> I only have Warpdoctor, VOICE is still on voice1. <eCSNL> And if that is not possible I would also suggest that some things are in need of serious update... <eCSNL> That might also keep people from looking around futher... <KenKrchnr> There are logs, but I know Mark was having trouble with them. <eCSNL> Start chopping some dead links, thats extremely bad publicity... <WalterOS2> A major update of the website is something Jeremy's working on, so I don't think this is the place to start rewriting or redesigning large chunks of it. :-) <WalterOS2> Either chop or update, yes. <eCSNL> Oke this is outside the voice webpage <eCSNL> Can the mirror page be removed ? <eCSNL> It points to an IBM fora last updated in 2002 <WalterOS2> But I think we should steer clear of throwing things out. Not everyone is using eCS 1.13 with the latest kernel. <eCSNL> Thats not why I placed that remark... <eCSNL> but the first you get when you click on the help desk page is infor on a 8 speed Creative CD ROM player... <wdl> NOT everone is using eCS - any version!!! <eCSNL> That stuf belongs more <eCSNL> in warpdoctor and not the main page of the help desk section... <eCSNL> Helpdesk page should be your start for searching the links to information and not listing info there... <KenKrchnr> (on Warpdoctor, the most accessed files are the Warp 4 boot disks. The disks on there aren't the newest :-) ) <WalterOS2> wdl: True enough. However, eCSNL is on the eCS development team, which is why I worded it the way I did. <eCSNL> What I mean to say is that that long lis of help should be there, it does in my opion not fit in the structure of the website... <eCSNL> Thats all has nothing todo with eCS <WalterOS2> eCSNL: If you want the task of removing or updating all the links on the web site, then it's yours. <eCSNL> Well I don't have access to the server... <WalterOS2> However, I don't think we should throw stuff out, because we don't know who might be using it. <WalterOS2> eCSNL: That could change. :-) <eCSNL> Walter I mean MOVE it... <WalterOS2> However, before you start doing that, we need to bring VOICE2 online as the main server. <eCSNL> The information... <WalterOS2> I'm sorry: MOVE what? <eCSNL> The content of that help desk pages belongs in my humble opion in WarpDoctor <eCSNL> And the help desk should for instance list <eCSNL> * Phone support (link to phone numbers etc) <eCSNL> * Mailing lists <eCSNL> * newsgroups <eCSNL> That helpdesk page in my opion should have links to short pages where you can go... <WalterOS2> So should we leave things as they are until we rearrange the HELP desk / pages? <eCSNL> Well I don't know when the plan to restructure the pages... <eCSNL> when the plan is to restructure the pages... <eCSNL> If its still going to take 6 months or so (which I can understand since it volenteer work) <eCSNL> then I would say redo the pages... <WalterOS2> I guess what I'm wondering is that this whole discussion begain with the simple query about where to move the 2 Volunteers information. Now you want to rearrange both sites. <WalterOS2> That's not a bad thing, necessarily. <WalterOS2> But do you want it to be all or nothing? <WalterOS2> My idea is something like this: <WalterOS2> 1. Put the help phone numbers in a better place (I'm not too fussy about where.) <WalterOS2> 2. Change to the new server. <WalterOS2> 3. Rearrange the Help Desk information and/or do the major redesign of os2voice.org. <eCSNL> Fine with me... * PsiFire has returned. .gz. <WalterOS2> OK, let's have Ken put the information about the telephones on a new page, I don't care what we call it--it's only temporary anyway, and put a link to it on the main page. <KenKrchnr> Sounds like a plan <WalterOS2> Phones.html <eCSNL> One final question on this topic what is holding up the move to the new server ? <WalterOS2> e.g. <WalterOS2> That's the next topic. <WalterOS2> :-) <WalterOS2> OK, Ken--please move the phone information as I laid it out above. :-) <KenKrchnr> I'll take care of that either tonite or tomorrow. <WalterOS2> Thanks a lot! <WalterOS2> OK, let's move on. <wdl> ---- I need to get this in: <wdl> ---- I'll be gone (totally unavailable) Friday, Nov 21 2003. through Monday, Dec 15 2003, inclusive. Hence not logging either VOICE or WarpDoctor. <wdl> ---- <WalterOS2> Old Business: Item 2: Move to VOICE2 <WalterOS2> OK, I'll take the log and give it to Ken. <WalterOS2> Thanks for letting us know. <WalterOS2> OK, Ken, what about the Server move? What is left to do? <WalterOS2> Did you get the information from Mark and Christian? <KenKrchnr> As far as I know everthing is ready, I just need some people to test their sections. <WalterOS2> Who? <KenKrchnr> I got that info, I beleive I have all that setup, but I need them to test. I was hoping Mark would be here today. <WalterOS2> I could have asked him specifically to be here, if I'd known he was needed. :-( <WalterOS2> Though Sat afternoon isn't a good time for him. <KenKrchnr> I set up the mail temporarily as warpdoctor.org, so I need people to use their existing os2voice.org accounts on warpdoctor.org to be sure all is OK. <WalterOS2> Existing os2voice.org accounts on warpdoctor.org? Please explain. <KenKrchnr> I have put the cgi scripts the translators use on voice2, but they need to be tested. I can't do that. <WalterOS2> The best thing would be to email them asking them to run the tests; they'll need to know what tests you want them to run. <WalterOS2> Do you have their email addresses? <KenKrchnr> I made the mail server respond as warpdoctor.org while we test. Any mailboxes, lists and/or redirects should be the same as any existing user os2voice account. <WalterOS2> OK, what about the VOICE NEWS mailing list? <KenKrchnr> So, for instance, if Walter logs on to mail.warpdoctor.org, you should see the same mailbox and info as if you had logged into mail.os2voice.org. <WalterOS2> That's a huge one. <KenKrchnr> All mail lists should work the same as on voice1. <WalterOS2> What do I have to put in my hosts file? <KenKrchnr> To test the mail you don't need to change anything, just log into mail.warpdoctor.org instead of mail.os2voice.org. <KenKrchnr> That goes fo anyone with an existing account on voice1. <KenKrchnr> Once we have that tested, we can move the next service to voice2. <WalterOS2> So far as I can tell that's Peter, Bill, and Mark. <wdl> I just tried that. No place to access anything; no place for password, etc. Says "Encrypted Pages..." * PsiFire has set away! (auto away after idling [15 min]) [Log:ON] .gz. <KenKrchnr> I'll email Mark and Christian to see if they can test their end for the newsletter. They'll need to change their hosts file to do that check. <KenKrchnr> Bill, what were you trying to log into? <wdl> http://mail.warpdoctor.org/ <KenKrchnr> Ahhh, you need a mail client and do a pop3 logon. <wdl> How to do that via Mozilla mail client??? <KenKrchnr> Set the incoming mail address as "mail.warpdoctor.org" <KenKrchnr> Then your username and password. <wdl> Where (in which file) do I put that? <KenKrchnr> That's in settings for the mail/news. <KenKrchnr> So open the mail/news window, then pick "edit" - "mail/newsgroup settings" (or something like that) <wdl> Hmmm. Don't see where... Not looking in the right place? <KenKrchnr> Did you open the Mail/newsgroups window? <KenKrchnr> (In Mozilla, click "Window" - "Mail and Newsgroups" <KenKrchnr> I have a question for Roderick, do I have to call with it? ;-) <eCSNL> I think you also send me an email <eCSNL> from Warpstock about wanting to be on the <eCSNL> phone support project ? <KenKrchnr> Have you heard of any problem with Apache 2.0 with eCS 1.1 tcpip stack? Specifically sockets hung in FIN_WAIT_2 <eCSNL> nope <KenKrchnr> We're getting a lot of them. I had to reboot voice2 (77 days run time) to clear 2500 hung sockets. <WalterOS2> I tried logging on to mail.warpdoctor.org, but it wants a password. I never use that account--didn't even know it was there until today. So I have *no* clue what the password is. :-( <wdl> Ken: re "Did you open the Mail/newsgroups window?" - Yes, filled various blanks; still doesn't work right??? <KenKrchnr> It's the same as your os2voice.org password. <wdl> Ken: Maybe we should try something after this meeting? <WalterOS2> Ken: Have you looked at the FTP tuning stuff on eCS Disk 2? I'm told it's pretty good. <WalterOS2> FTP=TCP/IP <KenKrchnr> Bill, did you set the server field? What error did you see? <KenKrchnr> Oh yeah, what account are you logging in to? <KenKrchnr> Walter, yes, I ran that stuff. <WalterOS2> Ken: I used that password: no joy. <KenKrchnr> Walter, which account are you trying? <WalterOS2> We should probably deal with this after the meeting. <KenKrchnr> Sounds good. <WalterOS2> [DESPAM]@mail.warpdoctor.org <WalterOS2> OK, let's move on to <WalterOS2> B. New Business <WalterOS2> I'm going to move Item 4 up to the top. <WalterOS2> Roderick, take it away. <WalterOS2> Item 4: Offer of Articles in FreeX <WalterOS2> Is he still here? <eCSNL> Yes <eCSNL> Multitasking <eCSNL> :-) <eCSNL> Oke <eCSNL> For the people who don't know what FreeX is <eCSNL> Its a German computer magazine <eCSNL> that is published in Germany <eCSNL> Austria <eCSNL> and the Swiss part of Switserland where German is spoken <eCSNL> about 90.000.000 or so in total... <eCSNL> Now VOICE wants to promote OS/2 and eComStation <WalterOS2> Right. <eCSNL> Would it not be wonderfull if we can get again OS/2 in a printed magazine ? <eCSNL> And it will not cost us one cent... <eCSNL> Oke <eCSNL> Rosa Riebl from FreeX <eCSNL> drops by at all European Warpstocks and <eCSNL> she was at WarpWeekend... <eCSNL> She finds me a complete OS/2 zealot <eCSNL> and in an email she mentioned <eCSNL> a new name for me <eCSNL> Roderick van Warp... <eCSNL> Well I said nice name for column... <eCSNL> She said that actualy here magazine would be interested in such a column... <eCSNL> Oke the offer stands... <eCSNL> FreeX is published every 2 months <eCSNL> and its not required... <eCSNL> But she wants to publish OS/2 articles <eCSNL> We can go as far as 4 to 5 pages... <eCSNL> A review written by Adriaan Geschwend about eCS 1.1 German was published... <WalterOS2> What's a page? VBG <eCSNL> A 4 paper <WalterOS2> :-) <eCSNL> A4 paper size I mean... <eCSNL> Well its not a strange question :-) <eCSNL> Now we don't have to send here a column every 2 months <eCSNL> however it would be cool if we <eCSNL> publish <eCSNL> every 2 months... <eCSNL> If you have a flow of articles that would create some attension <eCSNL> not if you only publish 1 or 2 times a year... <eCSNL> I can not commit to this... <eCSNL> I'm to busy :-) <eCSNL> I thought of the following sollution... <eCSNL> VOICE is publized every month <WalterOS2> Do they offer translation services? <eCSNL> And translated into German.... <eCSNL> The idea was we could use articles <WalterOS2> Right, I forgot for a moment. <eCSNL> from VOICE in FreeX <eCSNL> Especialy since the are willing to place articles every issue <eCSNL> (I'm very pleased with this operutnity!) <WalterOS2> What about their copyright policies? <eCSNL> We can not make demands I'm afraid... <eCSNL> Well let me get to the small detail now... <eCSNL> They only demand that <eCSNL> the articles for the time FreeX is on the news stand (which is 2 months) <eCSNL> are not publicezed on the internet.... <eCSNL> So where is difficult point... <eCSNL> A commercial magazine is printing <eCSNL> OS/2 articles and wants to have an exclusive right to them <eCSNL> until the issue of Free X goes of the newstand... <eCSNL> Something that I can understand <eCSNL> Copyright issue I have not spoken about yet <eCSNL> Its a take it or leave or deal... <WalterOS2> But articles from VNL will be on the Internet by the time FreeX gets them. <eCSNL> Thats the problem <Rat-Salad> hello <WalterOS2> "exclusive right" is a copyright issue. <Rat-Salad> I didn't miss this <WalterOS2> Your band let out early? <eCSNL> Somebody needs to select the articles before they are made public in the voice news letter <eCSNL> and send them off to Free X <Rat-Salad> a tad bit... usually practice from noon till 5 * Rat-Salad is worn out <eCSNL> They can then be made public after FreeX is of the news stand after 2 months... <eCSNL> The copyright issue we would need to look into to... <eCSNL> But if VOICE wants to promote OS/2 and a editor of an interesting article is interested in OS/2 to promote it... <eCSNL> This is our change in my opion.. <eCSNL> In my opion we should be very flexible towards FreeX... <eCSNL> Most computer magazines are not that OS/2 friendly... <eCSNL> It would be great if OS/2 can be mentioned every 2 months in a computer magazine <eCSNL> Instead of just *only * on the internet.... <WalterOS2> That's really Christian's department, since he edits the German edition of VNL, but I'm involved just enough that I can't think of anyway that's going happen. It's up to the editors (Christian and Mark), of course. <eCSNL> So you think this will not work ? <WalterOS2> But we (writers and translaters) would have to produce an article two months before it gets published in VNL. <eCSNL> No before VNL is published you look what could goto FreeX <eCSNL> and what not <WalterOS2> It's theoretically possible, but the translation and publishing teams are so busy already.... <eCSNL> I must admit its not nice to give them exclusive rights for 2 months... But heck if you want to reach new users (which VOICE wants) then I see this as a golden opertunity.... <eCSNL> For the rest I rest my case <eCSNL> The offer stands <eCSNL> and let me know if people have questions <eCSNL> or want to get in contact with Rosa Riebl... <WalterOS2> I'm not even taking about rights, now. I'm just think of the timing. <WalterOS2> Before we can discuss this further, we need to either have Mark and Christian here in a meeting (that would be ideal), or at least do some correspondance by email. <eCSNL> Well the can receive the IRC log... <eCSNL> So most details are know... <WalterOS2> The rights issue is to some extent up to the author of each article. <eCSNL> Thats right... <WalterOS2> VOICE by default has the rights to every article, but I hold the rights to mine. <WalterOS2> I got badly burned once. :-( <eCSNL> Well let me know what people think about it later by mail <eCSNL> But I urge people think twice before saying no! <eCSNL> This is what VOICE wants <eCSNL> Reach new users.... <WalterOS2> OK, I'll send an email to Mark, Christian with a copy to you. Then we can hash it around. <wdl> What about "exclusive rights" to the GERMAN LANGUAGE version - of ENGLISH Language material on the Web? <wdl> My wife's had experience with similar issues, and sometimes that sort of thing can be OK. <eCSNL> Well the German version of os2voice contains a translation of the English version <eCSNL> So I gues it would <WalterOS2> Well, don't forget that if I write an article, it gets translated into German anyway. <eCSNL> count for English articles as well... <wdl> Or even co-publication - in the two languages? <WalterOS2> For example, if I write.... <WalterOS2> That wouldn't work, because they are publishing before VNL. I don't think copublishing is the right herm <WalterOS2> herm=term <eCSNL> Well lets discuss that later... <eCSNL> It was the first offer... <WalterOS2> I'm sure something could be worked out about that. <eCSNL> And maybe the right people need to talk to Rosa Riebl <eCSNL> I'm just the messenger... <eCSNL> But I again say I think this is wonderfull opertunity for VOICE that this could be made possible! <WalterOS2> How is she on the Internet? <eCSNL> You mean email adress ? <WalterOS2> Would a chat be possible? <eCSNL> Don't know <eCSNL> I think you need to communicate via email... <WalterOS2> How's her English? Better than my German, I hope. :-) <eCSNL> Here English is perfect! <WalterOS2> eCSNL: email makes sense. <eCSNL> Man you don't want to see me write a German email... <eCSNL> Otherwhise I could not have invited here for WarpWeekend... <WalterOS2> Who actually posts these logs to the VOICE site? <KenKrchnr> I do <WalterOS2> I forget if it's Ken or Bill. :-( <WalterOS2> Hi Ken <WalterOS2> Could you drop me a note after this log is posted? <KenKrchnr> Sure <WalterOS2> Then I'll email Mark and Christian. <WalterOS2> Thanks. :-) <eCSNL> Walter I will send you the email adres of Rosa Riebl <WalterOS2> OK, thanks. <eCSNL> I will not mention it in the logs <eCSNL> (extra source for spammers) <eCSNL> :-) <KenKrchnr> It would get stripped anyway. <WalterOS2> See, we know what we're doing too. VBG <WalterOS2> I would like to see all SPAMMERS hanged, drawn, and quartered!! <WalterOS2> I'm afraid they'll destroy the 'net. <eCSNL> Well my manlyhood can be increased every day <eCSNL> I could made millions of dollars with business deals from Nigeria <eCSNL> And my viagria subscription is ready for pickup every hour or so <eCSNL> :-( <WalterOS2> I know. <WalterOS2> OK, I guess that covers the agenda, since Doug and Peter aren't here. <WalterOS2> Is there any OTHER BUSINESS? <WalterOS2> Anyone have anything on their mind relating to eCS/OS2 <eCSNL> Hmm <eCSNL> yes <eCSNL> How can VOICE <eCSNL> push OS/2 users again harder to contribute to some beta testing <eCSNL> of OS/2 applications /drivers... <wdl> Re eCS install, oh MY Yes! But this's not the right place. ;-) <eCSNL> Its still the same old tune... <eCSNL> Some developers/ projects end because of <eCSNL> lack of feedback.... <eCSNL> An issue that is slightly related to this.... <eCSNL> Where if you want information about OS/2 do you go.... <eCSNL> Well if you goto google and search for <eCSNL> os/2 <eCSNL> you get teamos2.org <eCSNL> and <eCSNL> os2ss.com <eCSNL> both are dead websites <eCSNL> the good news is that I'm in touch with BMT Micro <wdl> eCSNL: Sometimes the developers can be intimidating, when the ordinary user - trying to help - doen's know quite what's wanted. Or how to phrase his/her comments. <eCSNL> I know its difficult :-) <eCSNL> But my conclusion is... <wdl> Uh. "doen's" - doesn't <eCSNL> Users like OS/2... <eCSNL> I gues we should be gratefull to developers... I know it sounds very harsh <eCSNL> it varies with every case <eCSNL> But in genereal be gentle with developers... <eCSNL> There realy importanted... <eCSNL> But in genereal end users are dead silent! <eCSNL> The biggest problem is <eCSNL> No feedback <WalterOS2> Reminding is good. <eCSNL> then developers and/or end users end up in a fight because of a dispute... <eCSNL> And I know the views of developer <WalterOS2> It's also very important to register your shareware. <eCSNL> can conflict with <wdl> Some of us are not. But some of the "big boy" developers are, uh... pretty impatient with the "little guy" users. <eCSNL> end user... <eCSNL> Well OS/2 developers like <eCSNL> for instance Chriss Wolgemuth <wdl> I've had very little trouble. But others I know have given up trying to help. It's a 2-way street... <WalterOS2> eCSNL: Why don't you write an article in FreeX or VNL? <eCSNL> Because I'm more then overloaded <eCSNL> WalterOS2 <eCSNL> BTW he is rotten example of free developer that had enough <eCSNL> http://www.os2world.com/cdwriting/mmclasses/mmclassesmain.htm <WalterOS2> It's getting late. <WalterOS2> Anyone want to move we adjourn? <eCSNL> yep <WalterOS2> All in favour of adjourning this meeting, type Aye. <KenKrchnr> Aye <eCSNL> aye <WalterOS2> All opposed type Nay. <wdl> Aye. 14:22:19 <WalterOS2> Motion is carried, meeting is adjourned.