SpeakUp with Serenity Systems from 11/27/2000

<mandie>	g'evening :)
<MADodel>	Shall we get rolling? I have 20:01EST
<mandie>	he IS here! :)
<MADodel>	Bob are you expecting anyone else?
<Skip>	Is there to be another (repeat??) session on Friday for our European friends??
<mandie>	Skip: that's up to Bob, but we'll be glad to host one
<BobStJohn>	Expecting anyone? I'd love for Kim to participate .. but this is 5PM for him
<BobStJohn>	So ...it's me.
<mandie>	BobStJohn: if you'
<mandie>	oops
<Skip>	Say Bob, when is the ETA of ECS GA??
<mandie>	if you're free...shall we schedule a session again for this coming Friday at 3p?
<Blackbird>	Bob I hope that you have Voicetype enabled for your responces....:)
<BobStJohn>	Skip Well, we are still looking at the end of December to finish up and start distribution in early January.
<BobStJohn>	Blackbird You know .. I've never used VT. Maybe I should have ... looks cool
<BobStJohn>	I was asked to start with a trivia question ... ready?
<mandie>	oh, I'd wait til about mid session
*	Blackbird yep
<BobStJohn>	Can anyone name the components of OS/2 as announced in April 1987 and where they were developed?
*	Blackbird can't
<Rat-Salad>	erm.. before my time
<Chrissy>	not me...
<BobStJohn>	Sissies!
<mandie>	lol
<DSOM_eCS>	MS OS/2 1.0
<Blackbird>	developed REDMAN
<Chrissy>	I never heard of os/2 in 1987
<BobStJohn>	Here's a hint ..... Standard Edition was in Boca!
<warspite>	I saw something about a place called Boca Raton.
<DSOM_eCS>	Extended Edition...EE
<Rat-Salad>	geesh I was 7 years-old at the time
<BobStJohn>	DSOM_eCS right .. .now what was in EE
<DCasey>	besides REXX?
<DSOM_eCS>	BobStJohn - I'll stop responded....not fair for anyone else.
<Blackbird>	Redman Washington for EE
<DSOM_eCS>	BobStJohn - I'll stop responding...not fair for anyone else.
<BobStJohn>	EE had three components ...
<MADodel>	DataManager/2, Communications Manager/2
<BobStJohn>	mandie Very good ... one more ... c'mon
<BobStJohn>	darn
<BobStJohn>	That was supposed to be MADvirc
*	mandie destroyed the answers so Bob wouldn't have to kill her!
<mandie>	we're not allowed to play
<MADodel>	I have the manuals downstairs, let me check
<Skip>	I would say presentation manager.
<Sector>	Nope
<BobStJohn>	... MADvirc What did you say .... LAN Manager ????
<BobStJohn>	Why, that's right!
<BobStJohn>	Those were the Austin contributions
<BobStJohn>	So, I guess MADvirc is our winner?
<mandie>	Back in the days of SAA :)
<Sector>	Ok, the Standard Edition didn't include PM
<BobStJohn>	mandie Exactly
<BobStJohn>	PM was part of Release 2
<BobStJohn>	But mandie got me ... because all the presentations where SAA Compliant ... dictum of Earl Wheeler
<Fido2>	BobStJohn: Question for you if you get the upgrade. And have to reinstall from a blank hdd, do have install os/2 warp first before upgrade to ec2?
<BobStJohn>	No.
<BobStJohn>	eCS and MCP are a complete client product.
<mandie>	so clean install out of the box
<BobStJohn>	However, they are Warp 4 upgrades ... so from an intellectual property standpoint, Warp 4 is required.
<Fido2>	So there is no sniffer in them then
<BobStJohn>	eCS Upgrade requires Warp 4 license ... eCS 'new user' includes a Warp 4 license.
<mandie>	upgrade without the "sniffer"
<BobStJohn>	That's why we can include all the Bonus Pack and Voice Type and other "as is" components of Warp 4
<BobStJohn>	Would you like us to put a sniffer in?
<gregy>	no
<Fido2>	no
<mandie>	no thank you :)
<warspite>	So VT and BP are still there? Beauty!
<Skip>	I think "sniffer" = Winxx.
<mandie>	Skip: that would be "snuffer"
<mandie>	or suffer
<DSOM_eCS>	A network sniffer (DatagLANce etc.) would be nice. :-)
<BobStJohn>	Well, I gotta be careful about the BP ... some of it is gone ... not worth including.
<BobStJohn>	But if you have favorite BP components, make sure we know about them.
<Blackbird>	SO the upgrade WILL install OVER Warp 4 fp14....
<BobStJohn>	Fact is, some of that stuff is out of date, the people are gone ..
<BobStJohn>	You know ... I hesitate to make any assurance about how OS/2 will install .. and this is OS/2.
<warspite>	I cannot live without my PIM utilities from BP
<mandie>	Voice Type isn't even supported on the OS/2 platform any longer is it?
<BobStJohn>	I don't think any of the BP (or VT) has been "supported" for years.
<Blackbird>	But now it will be>>????
<mandie>	true, BP was extinct when Warp 4 was released
<BobStJohn>	No .... there is no one around to support BP ... it will be "community" support on the news servers..
*	mandie thinks that OS/2 users have become acustomed to "community" support :)
<BobStJohn>	Can I thank all of you who have been part of the Preview .. eGroups and now on the news groups
<BobStJohn>	I think the Preview has taught all of us a great deal
<Blackbird>	Once again.....will eCS install OVER Warp4 fp14 without a CLEAN hd
<Sector>	Sure you can, your welcome
<warspite>	BobStJohn: On installation, still the same as Warp 4? Still able to create a DOS/WIN partiton as per the Warp3 handbook?
<MADodel>	Any chance IBM will give you the source for any of the BP apps?
<BobStJohn>	Installation will be much like WSeb
<mandie>	BobStJohn: Can we thank you for supporting the os2 community...it's nice to know that someone actually listens!
<BobStJohn>	IBM doesn't have the source for the BP
<warspite>	second to Mandie
<BobStJohn>	It is amazing to me the things IBM cannot locate ... you know, all the stuff that urban legends tell us were developed, but never made it into a product.
<BobStJohn>	A lot may be true .. but no one can find the stuff
<BobStJohn>	I never knew a developer who didn't have every line of code they ever wrote .. or was given to them.
<mandie>	you'd think a company that size would be organized
<DCasey>	Why is that amazing? .. I can't find stuff I downloaded yetserday :-)
<mandie>	and had the second copy locked up in a safe deposit box :)
<gregy>	go poke around on their sites, and it won't surprise you...
<BobStJohn>	I want to mention that we do have a new user interface project
<Blackbird>	They probably are well organized.....it's just when you have 10 gizzillion things to keep track off.....
<BobStJohn>	It is being headed by Mensys (Joachim Benjamins)
<DSOM_eCS>	Yeah, a lot of the stuff in BP was developed by FootPrint.
<mandie>	more...more...what's the project
<BobStJohn>	It includes Richard Castle (Dialog Enhancer), Alessandro Cantatore (Styler/2), and Ulrich Moeller participates.
<WarpedOS2>	The new user interface, you are just refering to the interface not the redesign of wps?
<warspite>	Back again
<BobStJohn>	But it is an update .. we are looking at new folders, controls, icons
<BobStJohn>	I recall a comment from someone who was giving an eCS demo .. and the folks seemed distracted by the lack of a uniform desktop ..
<BobStJohn>	Kept asking questions about icons ...
<warspite>	Thanks RumpleS. Will do.
<BobStJohn>	Well, I think we all agree .. the OS/2 classic look is from 1995. Those who want it .. .it will remain.
<BobStJohn>	But .. it seems like a good time to update, modernize .. the look.
<mandie>	agree
<BobStJohn>	IOW .. we are looking at a change in the can .. not the beer
<Fido2>	About lvm, if the volume which goes over a few drives. How can you backup that one drive?
<Blackbird>	not to web pages I hope....
<BobStJohn>	not to web pages?
<mandie>	as in windoze
<RumpleS>	aka win98
<mandie>	Active Desktop
<BobStJohn>	Oh ... well, we are looking at "skins" .. during install the user will select a "look"
<Blackbird>	Just have it selectable is all....
<BobStJohn>	That could be OS/2, eCS, Windows, Linux, Apple,
<WarpedOS2>	Hi Bob, what about parts of the interface with stardock Object Desktop? Would they cooperate?
<mandie>	sounds sort of like some of the gui interfaces for linux
<Skip>	Sounds Cool!!
<BobStJohn>	I haven't spoken to Brad for awhile. To be honest, I think Brad is beat up and worn out on this.
<mandie>	I think Brad's last article said it all
<WarpedOS2>	Bob, from his Newsgroup, I would have to agree...he is kinda bitter I think...
<BobStJohn>	OD is a Kurt Westerfield (I may have butchered his last name) effort and Brad is not sure what they will do with it .. I think Kurt will make that decision
<Fido2>	Bob: About lvm, if the volume which goes over a few drives. How can you backup that one drive?
<Blackbird>	To a very large tape I guess....LOL
<BobStJohn>	Sorry .. and LVM question .. Mark? Do you know? I hate product questions .. what if I said the same way you do it on Warp Server for e-business? ... what that be fair?
<BobStJohn>	Can "I don't know." be an answer?
<Fido2>	ok
<mandie>	if it's an honest one, yes :)
<BobStJohn>	Where's Mike Persell when I need him
<BobStJohn>	I do want to mention a Serenity Systems sort of direction ..
<Skip>	I would think that backup methods that work in WSEB would work in ECS.
<WarpedOS2>	Well, I use OD and nice dialogue enhanceer and makes for a similar interface to the Bill empire..
<BobStJohn>	We always saw eCS as a business desktop system
<BobStJohn>	And WiseManager as a way to manage business desktop systems
<BobStJohn>	As we get closer to GA ... we want to get back to the idea of recruitng consultants
<Blackbird>	SO us lowly home users are....?????
<BobStJohn>	who will use these products with their customers
<DSOM_eCS>	Fido2 - Yes....the volume will carry a drive letter.
<BobStJohn>	Blackbird GMAB
<BobStJohn>	I'm a home user
<BobStJohn>	But if we want to be successful ... we can't base our business on the OS/2 home user
<BobStJohn>	The best thing we can do to support OS/2 home users isnet and our ability to do business so we can invest in the product.
<Fido2>	bob: Will the ecs have better support video mpeg1 or avi files?
<BobStJohn>	There are few OS/2 home users ...
<BobStJohn>	OS/2 advocates who use OS/2 at home, yes ...
<BobStJohn>	And that is a community we have always supported ... and have benefitted from their support
<warspite>	BobStJohn: Can we communicate directly with Orion, your Oz connection with questions via email?
*	mandie applauds Serenity Systems
<BobStJohn>	In fact ... one of the key reasons we took on Indelible Blue was to make sure we had a channel available to home users
<WarpedOS2>	Well, I find even a corporate upgrade or purchase of eCS expensive compared to the competition...herer in Canada, a copy of eCS out right is 400.00
<mandie>	wow
<BobStJohn>	I need to go back and read the questions .. now that I got off my tirade.
<Blackbird>	My position was to reflec that as a home user I'll be able to use eCS without having to install a network or ???? ....
<mandie>	WarpedOS2: it would be cheaper to move to the states :)
<WarpedOS2>	Yea mandie....I agrree
<BobStJohn>	eCS needs to have the option for a user to have a Windows type interface .. and WorkPlace Shell makes it easy to support that .
<Fido2>	mandie: It doesn't help when us has a strong dollar compare other countries
<mandie>	nothing wrong with "choice"
<BobStJohn>	Orion Solutions is www.orion-solutions.au.com and the principal consultant is Mark Rogers
<mandie>	that name sounds very familiar
<Sector>	Blackbird, eCS doesn't require a network
<RumpleS>	I've spoken with Mark in the past.
<WarpedOS2>	Here in Canada...windows outright is still under 200.00 an upgrade is about 110.00
<BobStJohn>	We have an eCS multimedia discusssion group on eGroups .. and we have requested access to MMPM and MMOS2 source code so we can improve the MM capabilities.
<WarpedOS2>	for eCS with no upgrade...400.00 and upgrade is 200.00
<RumpleS>	He has even demonstrated eCS managed by WiseManager to me.
<warspite>	Thanks Bob.
<BobStJohn>	That reminds me ... yes we are still talking to IBM wrt to access to source. They want us to be very specific and I don't want to get into details .. but we have some support from the OS/2 product group.
<mandie>	that's encouraging
<BobStJohn>	Of course, any changes in source raises issues, especially from IBM, about how this will be supported. But .. it would seem we need to make these changes if we want to make eCS accepted
<Blackbird>	WarpedOS2>>>were are you....I'm in Edmonton...
<mandie>	now if they can just find that MMOS2 source code! :)
<BobStJohn>	accepted by a range of users ...even home users.
<Fido2>	The MMPM is outdated
<WarpedOS2>	How does a reseller entice corporate to purchase a few copies of eCS and provide a solution at a competitive price when the cost is 2 to one for each license of eCS
<BobStJohn>	No question .. there are some things that seem to be too old to revive .. but I'll leave those decisions to the folks who will dicker with the code.
<Skip>	Bob - has Timur Tabi had any input about the MMos2 contemplations??
<BobStJohn>	Yes, Timur is part of the eGroups discussion group
<BobStJohn>	We are also working with IBM on a reworking of the installation process ... no surprise there
<mandie>	WarpedOS2: I think windoze is almost a given....I think that eCS and WiseManager will take alot of marketing in order to get it out there
<Fido2>	The only app the does sort of do it, is pmpeg. But there is no sound and runs in 1/2 fps required
<BobStJohn>	Actually, I have found the IBM OS/2 development management to be very supportive ...
<mandie>	they're probably amoung the "home users" group :)
<BobStJohn>	I had a meeting with IBM in Austin .. to discuss how we can work with IBM, OS/2, and eCS over the next several years.
<mandie>	positive?
<BobStJohn>	I think so.
<mandie>	good
<BobStJohn>	Problem is ... sometimes it's hard to tell
<BobStJohn>	As long as we continue to meet .. it's good.
<mandie>	yes, just keep your foot in the door :)
<WarpedOS2>	Mandie...a lot of the talk here is enhancements that a home user wants that is why I ragg on the price..
<BobStJohn>	Thing is ... we think we can take OS/2 .. or parts of it .. for quite a ride yet.
<BobStJohn>	We may need to bolt some new things on to the sides of it .. but that's cool
<Skip>	What kind of staff does IBM still have that are familiar with OS/2??
<BobStJohn>	WarpedOS2 You think eCS is over priced?
<WarpedOS2>	Better yet how many of the team of OS/2ers are left to do the programming?
<WarpedOS2>	Hi bob, yes here in Canada it is very much, it is the sam eprice as IBM OS/2 Warp 4.0
<BobStJohn>	WarpedOS2 How many are left? I dunno. It seemed easier to get a parking space than when I worked there.
<BobStJohn>	OK .. so you think eCS .. which is Warp 4 and Merlin Convenience Pack, and Smart Suite, and Desktop on Call ... should cost less that Warp 4?
<warspite>	Bob, are messrs Sipples and Kaply able to help. I've got their book, and it's great.
<WarpedOS2>	Well, here in Canada warp 4.0 is 400.00....I doubt even corporate will look at that price per wkstn!
<BobStJohn>	warspite Tim Sipples and Mike Kaply have been helpful ... but those guys hardly have time to brush their teeth. I'm not sure what I can get from them as a contribution.
<warspite>	Fair enough.
<BobStJohn>	Well, I don't want to get into a big discussion on cost of acquisition ... but ... I think the cost of eCS is something that can be easily justified.
<BobStJohn>	eCS is much kinder on hardware resource and a lot less expensive to support
<BobStJohn>	Cost of acquisition is the smallest cost of putting a workstation into the organization
<warspite>	That's always been the saving with OS/2. No bloat.
<BobStJohn>	Any business that is looking at Windows today can look down the track at two more "upgrades" in the next couple of years ... and that churn won't be cheap.
<WarpedOS2>	Bob I know what you are saying and I understand....the value part...but How do I convince the customer that eCS is better though it costs more than twice as much....200.00 per copy...sure but not 400.00 sheesh..!
<BobStJohn>	Money should be the issue. I'm more sensitive to issues of hardware support and applications.
<BobStJohn>	OK ... you need to acquaint the customer with the total cost of ownership. I have a white paper on the web site and another one which is sent on request to consultants on selling managed clients, also has a lot of TCO info in it.
<Blackbird>	What is the UPGRADE price in Canada Warpedos2
<BobStJohn>	Consider that Gartner puts a price tag of $10,000 on running Windows in the office ... and tell me if the $200 they save on eCS is worth it?
<Fido2>	Here in Aus $US Price x 2
<Skip>	Couple ECS with an WSEB environment and those seats would be very cost effective in what you have to buy!
<mandie>	it's worth more than that just in stability
<WarpedOS2>	Bob, I have similar papers of OS/2 and I can convince the customer to purchase eCS based on reliabliity, ease of use and options, hard ware well, you simply need good choice of products..I do that. but Cost the buck stops there! Then I loose out...
<BobStJohn>	There are other TCO figures .. IDC and Dataquest .. but not any that are below $5,000 a year .. unless you are talking about a straight line of business application on supported hardware
<warspite>	What will be the Upgrade price in Oz, remembering that our $ is half that of the US$?
<BobStJohn>	WarpedOS2 I would like to see your white paper ... you show me yours, I'll show you mine?
<mandie>	hehe
<BobStJohn>	warspite I think it would be best to go to Orion Solutions web site for pricing ... I don't want to speak for them.
<warspite>	OK
<WarpedOS2>	Sure...I can even send you the site where I got it...I will have to check my bookmarks
<Blackbird>	Hi StevenL....hope everything went well...
<BobStJohn>	One thing we want to do with eCS is create a relatively complete PC "environment"
<WarpedOS2>	Bob....maybe my corporate customers are not as big as yours, SoHO in Canada here will not even look at it, no new customers here...
<BobStJohn>	Well, I figure you can compete for business with 5 or more workstations. Basically putting the hardware, software, service and support into one monthly contract.
<BobStJohn>	Make the user aware of what is happening in the world of PC computing .. hardware and software churn.
<mandie>	BobStJohn: sounds like you need training sessions for those marketing eCS :)
<BobStJohn>	eCommerce ... isthat something they want to manage .. ?
<BobStJohn>	Or would they rather retain you
<BobStJohn>	You manage everything .. they just tell you what they need to support their business objectives .. you calculate their TCO. Then provide a contract for less than the current TCO.
<BobStJohn>	OS/2, eCS, Warp Server .. WiseManager .. allow you to control the support costs .. your expenses .. so you can make money that way.
<BobStJohn>	See ... I told'ya ... I'm Marty Marketing
<BobStJohn>	I've been thinking we should set up a city tour of half day seminars to get this message out. Get a couple of consultants ... and maybe 15 to 20 small organizations.
<BobStJohn>	Spend 30 minutes scaring the heck out of them.
<BobStJohn>	They ought to be scared ... chilly scary stuff out in PC land ...
<Fido2>	Bob: Is the preview ready for commercial environment? Or things to be fixed?
<BobStJohn>	then relieve the pain with the soma of managed client computing ...
<BobStJohn>	Kim assures me that eCS is now ready for use by enterprise accounts ...
<BobStJohn>	Fido2 BTW .. we are doing a very controlled "Preview 2"
<BobStJohn>	Not intended for everyone .. just to help us test some changes made as a result of the feed back from the preview.
<DSOMber1>	Hello all.
<Blackbird>	You could do a Conference type thing....HP did one in Canada last year...
<Blackbird>	rented movie theaters for seating and sat feed etc...
<WarpedOS2>	Well, bob I need to talk to ya in person some day soon...
<BobStJohn>	Blackbird I think we could do that ... I want to do it with IBM's help .. ask them to help us get the folks in the door.
<BobStJohn>	DSOMber1 If I realized you had snuck out .. I would have talked about you ...
<Blackbird>	Yep that would work...
<Skip>	Bob - just seeing thin clients ripled from the server will turn MANY heads.
<BobStJohn>	Well, I'm here to talk to anyone ... it's what I do.
<BobStJohn>	I'm really anxious to start building a channel.
<DSOM_eCS>	BobStJohn - I had an ISP problem....I'm back now.
<warspite>	Gotta go, everyone..Looking after my patient. Thanks for everything and the best of luck and wishes Bob.
<BobStJohn>	Jacaranda Business Systems has shown tremendous interest in creating program for resellers and consultants
<mandie>	warspite: thanks for coming
<WarpedOS2>	Well, I support 500 - 900 windoz wkstns and it is a nightmare....eCS can change that...I know but I have to prove it...
<warspite>	My pleasure.
<BobStJohn>	WarpedOS2 Well, we should make a project out of it ... call me this week and we'll make a plan.
<mandie>	warpedos2: do you have the opportunity to "prove" it to them?
<WarpedOS2>	Bob I have been talking to Steve at JBS
<BobStJohn>	Have you ... ? What's your impression.
<WarpedOS2>	Mandie, Yes....I can prove it, the interface must be similar but NOT the same...Odin will have to play a part too.
<BobStJohn>	We are still working with Micho on a Win32 managed client running from WSeb.
<BobStJohn>	Some folks saw his presentation at Warpstock
<WarpedOS2>	Bob ....Steve has been really helpful and willing to do stuff....but the cost is just a bit high for me to sell sell sell...If I can get one good customer...then the advertising will do the rest...
<BobStJohn>	OK ... if anyone has a marketing situation ... contact me. We'll try to work a special bid to get you (all) that reference account.
<BobStJohn>	hmmmmmmmmmmm ..... everyone must be taking a ... break
<mandie>	no, just thinking of how supportive you are
<Blackbird>	Darn ...Bob now thats service...
<mandie>	Blackbird: agreed
<BobStJohn>	Well, I know Steve would work with us, too ...
<Blackbird>	This could start to be a more exciting place to live soon....and work....
<BobStJohn>	I know that all of us will face the "who else is using this .." question .. and we need answers.
<WarpedOS2>	ok, bob...I will do that. I have been holding back because of cost....I don't live in a dense population but one example of a solution will spread like wildfire and eCS will be the talk of the area
<Fido2>	Bob: Does ecs support seeing long file names on win pc's? over the network
<BobStJohn>	Folks who know Mark Kerzner of Lumature ... there's a guy I need to recruit as a reference. He can explain the value in a small business
<BobStJohn>	Fido2 There is no support that is not already in WSeb and MCP .. maybe DSOM_eCS can answer that better than I can.
<DSOM_eCS>	Fido2 - I assume you mean using the Peer service and not via TCP/IP?
<Blackbird>	Will there be some type of coordinated push ....on the big user of warp4 ....governments etc....????
<Skip>	Bob - Do you see home user's needs from ECS differently than the enterprise needs?
<Fido2>	Dsom_ecs: yes, currently using warp 4 as a server
<BobStJohn>	Blackbird I don't see that sort of push coming in the near term
<BobStJohn>	I don't have the resource for that kind of launch
<BobStJohn>	That's one of the reasons I wanted to engage IBM Austin
<BobStJohn>	Persaude them that eCS and be a "go to" platform for OS/2 users
<BobStJohn>	In my long term vision .. I can see a new OS out about four years from now that still has components of OS/2
<BobStJohn>	Support for OS/2 applications ... support for Win32 .. through Odin type api support
<Blackbird>	Your Wisemanager solution would be very attractive to them....would it not...
<DSOM_eCS>	Fido2 - Good question. I think that at the moment Win9x PC can see long files name on Warp 4/eCS...but I don't think it currently works the other way aroung.
<BobStJohn>	Support for *ix and Linux through xfree86 and EverBlue type stuff
<BobStJohn>	Ever since Tivoli took over WSOD .. I figure WiseManager is the best Managed Client solution with an OS/2 base
<Skip>	Bob - do you think that IBM support will be there for device drivers and fixes?
<Fido2>	Dsom_ecs: thats right my win pc can see lfn on warp, but not the other way around. It would nice to see lfn on the win boxes
<BobStJohn>	I think IBM will continue with device drivers for the next few years ... but not sure what those drivers will be
<Skip>	Will IBM just maintain OS/2 or will they enhance it?
<BobStJohn>	I think we'll have to stir the DD pot ourselves.
<greg2>	Bob...re Skip...yes...this is absolutely crucial
<BobStJohn>	Look at the OS/2 users today .. focus is on several hundred ( 500 to 800 depending on who you talk to ) with several million licenses.
<BobStJohn>	Any enhancements will be focused on that user base
<BobStJohn>	And that user base has been told by IBM to expect very little ..
<mandie>	and expanding that user base
<BobStJohn>	expanding that user base is our ambition
<greg2>	WE can expand the user base, if we can support them
<BobStJohn>	But we don't see it as expanding the OS/2 user base
<Blackbird>	But will IBM be telling them about you BoB
<BobStJohn>	eComStation needs to build off OS/2 .. go beyond OS/2
<mandie>	Blackbird: go wash your hands with SOAP!
<BobStJohn>	OS/2 remains the engine .. but OS/2 won't be enough
<WarpedOS2>	Bob ,,, if you depend on IBM to enhance warp then how you going to build off of OS/2?
<BobStJohn>	WarpedOS2 We don't intend to be entirely dependent on IBM.
<greg2>	yes...but if my customer gets new devices, and mfgr doesn't write drivers, then I hafta...and right now, I can't
<BobStJohn>	One of the things we plan to do in the next six months is to clearly demonstrate that we can control the destiny of eCS
<greg2>	how will we address this..??
<mandie>	then you need to contract someone to write the dd
<WarpedOS2>	Well then bob does that mean you will continue with driver updates yourself if IBM petters out??
<BobStJohn>	greg2 It becomes difficult to talk about device and hardware support without being specific
<BobStJohn>	But part of this goes back to why we want to position eCS and managed client computing as a service
<greg2>	...most hardware mfgrs are NOT writing OS2 drivers, now..
<BobStJohn>	When you provide a service, you have great latitude to control the software and hardware used
<greg2>	yes...we can do it ourselves, if we have the references..etc
<BobStJohn>	Keeping in mind that when CDP comes in and does payroll ... no one says "hey .. that's not windows"
<BobStJohn>	That's just the payroll machine.
<greg2>	true
<BobStJohn>	That's the key to "outsourcing" the computing environment ... all or part of it.
<BobStJohn>	There are some talented DD authors .. and I'm trying to get the DDK included in the eCS product .. that might help development outside IBM.
<WarpedOS2>	Sounds like the IBM mentaliity.....Just kidding...
<greg2>	yes..
<BobStJohn>	Hey .. there's a lot of IBM in me. I just retired the first of this month
<greg2>	the DDK, etc..and references..online
<StevenL>	Bob, I wish that were true. The shops I know want ADP or PayChex to talk to their Windows apps and take data from there Windows apps...
<StevenL>	It's what they have and what they know.
<WarpedOS2>	Hmmm retired...I would like to retire from computers... :-)
<BobStJohn>	Yes .. some sort of reference database .. and a community of channel partners helping each other
<BobStJohn>	OS/2 community has always been very collaborative
<greg2>	nothing wrong with IBM mentality, just that George don't talk to charlie, over there
<greg2>	yes...Bob, sort of like my TechRepublic....
<BobStJohn>	StevenL As long as folks are specific .. I think we can work through those issues. That's one of the reasons we have Smart Suite and Star Office .. to facilitate the exchange with MS.
<BobStJohn>	However, I do think that the next 18 to 36 months are going to see big changes in how businesses handle this. Fact is, using MS office in a networked environment .. isn't easy. And the Internet is a networked environment.
<StevenL>	I have both and am aware of their capabilities.
<BobStJohn>	I think IBM has that right, with the application frameworks story.
<StevenL>	I would like to see the asp/service model take hold...
<StevenL>	There's plenty of marketing blurb out there. It's hard to know how much is real implementations.
<Skip>	I subscribe to Developers Toolbox (nee Connection). The content of this is to the point that there is less and less OS/2 content. Coupled with the lag (or outright dropping) of tools, compilers, etc. that emerge from IBM for OS/2, some of these tools are getting dated. Also, SOM has not been supported by IBM since 1997. This is very troubling. How can things be developed with out the proper support from IBM??
<BobStJohn>	I don't talk ASP .. too weak. I talk TSP .. Total Solution Provider. "Sit down, tell me what you need .. I'll build it".
<BobStJohn>	Then .. if they want Windows .. give it to them .. and price accordingly.
<WarpedOS2>	Bob maybe I need a lesson on marketing the IBM way then....
<greg2>	Bob that's a new name for Consultant...
<BobStJohn>	You can do eCS for a lot less than you can do Windows .. and if they are willing to pay the extra frieght ... you may still come out ahead .. now worse, anyway.
<greg2>	always has been
<BobStJohn>	no worse
<BobStJohn>	no worse
<BobStJohn>	Anyway .. we appreciate the need for Windows .. that's why we work with Micho.
<BobStJohn>	We expect to be able to do remote boot of Win98 .. maybe NT .. drag and drop software deployment to Windows Workstations from WiseManager, which remains and OS/2 application .. running over the WSeb.
<StevenL>	I can see this working for new deployments. I find the value proposition harder to justify for existing installation.
<BobStJohn>	This Windows workstation will be much more reliable than "normal" windows ... and it will be easier to migrate off Windows when the time comes
<BobStJohn>	StevenL Well, let's wait for the next I LOVE YOU virus .. and go back and talk to those account, then.
<StevenL>	It won't be me. I don't do Windows support...
<greg2>	if you can carry this off, then I can remotely service ALL my customers, from one box, without ever having to use Boot Manager
<StevenL>	However, I do plan on talking to them...
<StevenL>	They use Citrix now and eCS has possibilities to compete there.
<WarpedOS2>	I am doing remote admin now with Warp / eCS client to Netware....console1, telnet....etc
<DSOM_eCS>	Citrix and Terminal Server tend to be very top heavy.
<BobStJohn>	Yeah .. I'd like to compete with some Citrix accounts ... that's not cheap .. and it isn't very scalable .. and, from what I hear .. not very reliable, either.
<WarpedOS2>	Well, Bob run some examples of eCS over Citrix and see how it adds up, if it is doable then there might be some sales here!
<BobStJohn>	warpedos2 Better to start with a specific account and application and design from there. There's more than one way to do this.
<BobStJohn>	Have we left all the "home users" behind?
<mandie>	no, just sitting on the side lines listening :)
<greg2>	Bob...most of us ARE home users....when we are'nt servicing our clients
<greg2>
<Blackbird>	Over my head....
<BobStJohn>	greg2 me 2
<Blackbird>	might have to go watch ELECTION results.....:)
<BobStJohn>	Well, the thing is ... we need to define an area where we can succeed.
<greg2>	but...economics has forced me to go to other OSs,
<Fido2>	From what I heard citrix + win nt are costly
<greg2>	Fido2, exactly
<BobStJohn>	In the general home user market ... we can't ... suppport, preloads, dealer channel .. etc.
<greg2>	yes
<greg2>	need this
<BobStJohn>	Maybe we can work on the "Internet Appliance" market ... as an embedded OS .. but still have some work to make that work.
<BobStJohn>	But .. in the line of business environment .. the business desktop .. managed by a cadre of fee service consultants ..I think we can be very successful.
<greg2>	yes...
<Fido2>	I use warp 4 in a commercial environment, it cost less to run it, that if I when the nt path.
<greg2>	my bag, now
<BobStJohn>	I say this because we can help these people create a recurring revenue stream
<BobStJohn>	and the key to that is controlling costs ... and Windows is not a "controlling costs" kind of a deal.
<greg2>	what do you mean..":these people"...this helps ME...
<greg2>	yes
<BobStJohn>	greg2 Well, maybe *you* are one of *those* people
<greg2>	yes...
<BobStJohn>	OK ... it got real quiet again ... am I alone?
<Fido2>	no
<greg2>	:_
<Blackbird>	that's what I was wondering as well
<Sector>	All alone again
<Blackbird>	maybe time for a trivial trivia...
<greg2>	...we need lotsa this stuff posted, so we can refer to it later, in detail
<BobStJohn>	Sector Naturally ...
<greg2>	so...we need the urls posted maybe on voice site
<Fido2>	Bob: With the upg plan, besides the ibm cont. packs what else does it include?
<RumpleS>	What else do you have in the pipeline following the release of eCS GA?
<Blackbird>	How long will the upgrade be available to warp 4 users???
<BobStJohn>	Fido2 There's a good write up by Walter Metcalf on About.com .. what is in the box. Though there will be more with the GA.
<DSOM_eCS>	I'm sure that someone is capturing a complete log.
<Sector>	Till the end of support for Warp 4
<Skip>	Bob-Can you comment on the future of OS/2 develment tools.
<mandie>	sector: logging?
<Sector>	Of course
<mandie>	ata boy :)
<greg2>	good
<Blackbird>	I have one running as well
<Blackbird>	don't know why thought....:)
<BobStJohn>	RumpleS I don't want to get into futures ... but we are working on enhancements to the UI .. that won't happen in one pass. Enhancements to the multimedia .. including the possibility of DVD.
<RumpleS>	I wasn't thinking long term, just short term thinking at this time.
<RLD>	Bob, I read in the NGs that IBM is doing one more round with VAC. Have you heard any more about that?
<Fido2>	Bob: Sorry I meant the upg plans
<BobStJohn>	RLD Only what you heard ... but keep in mind that even IBM Austin ... needs that stuff .. and they can lobby better than I can.
<RLD>	:)
<RumpleS>	So immediate enhancements (marketting type stuff) to make the package more attractive then.
<BobStJohn>	Fido2 I don't understand what you mean .. upgrade .. we plan to refresh by the end of 2001 .. that will be in synch with the next MCP.
<BobStJohn>	We also expect to deliver enhancement though the upgrade protection subscription.
<Fido2>	I was referring to the upgrade protection subscription. Sorry I wasn't clear about it
<BobStJohn>	The feed back we have gotten focused on updating the user interface ... and improving the MM .. the Internet support .. which can also involve MM. DVD was another .. we are also looking at dhcp boot .. a remote boot over the Inet
<WarpedOS2>	The MM updating ....? will that include PCI sound card support...better?
<BobStJohn>	Is that MM or device support? But device support is also on the list. Frankly, you are getting into an area I would rather leave to Kim.
<BobStJohn>	BTW .. everyone know to get to the ecs newsgroups .. eh?
<BobStJohn>	news.ecomstation.nl
<Blackbird>	I do now
<WarpedOS2>	Was it down lately?
<WarpedOS2>	I tried to get to it and all I got were errors.
<RumpleS>	Have the newsgroups been topic grouped yet?
<BobStJohn>	I don't think so .. but I think that if you subscribed earlier .. you need to unsubscribe .. then subscribe again, anew
<RLD>	its much more stable since they went with changi instead of lotus notes
<RumpleS>	The quantity of email I was receieving was overwhelming.
<mandie>	egroups
<BobStJohn>	yes .. there are several topics including GUI, support for Smart Suite, StarOffice, network, install, advocacy
<DSOM_eCS>	Yes, I'm behind in my mail as well.
<BobStJohn>	eGroups is the discussion group .. I'm talking about the news server
<BobStJohn>	We could add groups for "requirements" ... and "multimedia"
<DSOM_eCS>	Yes...accessible via Netscape and ProNews and others.
<BobStJohn>	I use PMMail and PMI News .. works fine.
<DSOM_eCS>	Most Usenet clients should work.
<BobStJohn>	All signal .. no noise
<JoSt>	Any info on the GUI-update-project headed by Mensys? deadlines and such?
<BobStJohn>	JoSt We just want to get something done by GA ... but it's clear we can't be finished with all that we want to do by GA. This is something we can discuss on the news group
<Blackbird>	pronews can't find it ...
<RumpleS>	Have any decisions been made as to the cut-off for GA and what will and won't make it in?
<BobStJohn>	MADvirc Remember to contact me so you get your prize for the trivia question
<BobStJohn>	RumpleS No .. the cut offs are not firm.
<BobStJohn>	That is part of what the second preview will help determine
<MADodel>	What prize?
<BobStJohn>	Again, the second preview is very limited and controlled
<BobStJohn>	MADvirc I dunno .. what do you want?
<BobStJohn>	I mean, I could over you eCS .. but you probably have a copy.
<JoSt>	Is it possible to localize the eCS specific components (WiseMachine etc.) for the NLS versions? Maybe as a volunteer effort for the smaller languages???
<BobStJohn>	over is amended to read offer
<RumpleS>	And you can't have SN #1 either 8-)
<MADodel>	I have 3, or at least I bought 3. The prev2 is not that much different from prev1. The boot selection isn't quite done.
<mandie>	MAD: then send one my way!
<BobStJohn>	JoSt I don't know. That is a discussion worth having. I'd like to get Joachim Benjamins involved in it.
<RLD>	my prev came #8 written with blue marker on it . *snicker*
<BobStJohn>	MADvirc Then you need to tell me what Santa can bring ...
<JoSt>	BobStJohn: Maybe we could have some Mensys reps. in a future (more Euro friendly timed) chat??
<BobStJohn>	I need to break for five minutes .. need to tuck in the young'uns
<MADodel>	Jost: Good idea
<WarpedOS2>	Bob, what is the ecs news group again?
<RLD>	news.ecomstation.nl
<Blackbird>	@home news server can't find the news group....????!!!!!
<WarpedOS2>	thanks RLD
<JoSt>	Blackbird: They only exist on the Mensys server!
<Blackbird>	searched....no find ....
<Blackbird>	ok how do I get to it...
<BobStJohn>	I'm back .. until they start fighting.
<JoSt>	Blackbird: Add news.ecomstation.nl as a new server to your nntp client!
<RLD>	Blackbird: try it with netscape, with news.ecomstation.nl in the location feild
<MADodel>	blackbird: what news client are you using?
<BobStJohn>	I think we can do a Euro friendly chat and I know that Mensys would participate.
<Blackbird>	pronews
<Blackbird>	ok jost
<MADodel>	Set up a new server for news.ecomstation.nl
<DSOMber1>	Greetings.
<kidmarc>	Yes it is a bit of a strain Bob, to stay awake
<greg2>	wb
<Sector>	Hmmm, how about an earlier chat on the usuall Monday"
<Rat-Salad>	goodnight
<MADodel>	Next Monday is a Speakup with Sundial
<BobStJohn>	Well, I'm thinkkng of something like 1PM PST on a weekday .. we might get Kim involved.
<MADodel>	It will be a special one. Watch for the announcement in a day or two
<mandie>	a "very
<BobStJohn>	That would be .. what ... 4PM EST .. what time is that in .... well, over there.
<mandie>	oops..."very" special one
<mandie>	around 9pm?
<JoSt>	BobStJohn: that would be around 23:00 CET
<kidmarc>	10 pm Central Europe time
<BobStJohn>	Too late ...
<Fido2>	There is site www.timeanddate.com that works out the time it your country compared to other times
<BobStJohn>	OK ... 10 am PST, noon CST, and 1PM EST ... and 7 PM C E time?
<BobStJohn>	Maybe on a Friday?
<Sector>	That would be 6:00pm GMT / UT, could work...
<Blackbird>	Set up a new server for news.ecomstation.nl >>>>tried this...the connection is shown but no action...
<BobStJohn>	Wir Deustche sprechen
<mandie>	I won't be able to attend, but I'll send out an announcement once decided
*	Sector still thinks we should keep em on Monday's (We just tried one on a Friday...)
<kidmarc>	Ja richtig!
<MADodel>	Oh, what version of Pronews are you using Blackbird? Only 1.5+ supports multiple servers
<Blackbird>	got it......GOT IT......
<Sector>	Congradulations
<StevenL>	Friday would have been fine if the guest of honor had arrived. :-)
<mandie>	:)
<kidmarc>	Uhhh... what happened Friday? Or should I what didn't happened?
<kidmarc>	should I say...
<mandie>	kidmarc: there was a speakup on eCS but our guest was detained
<BobStJohn>	OK .. apolowologologies .. I was on a plane .. didn't .. I over booked.
<JoSt>	Maybe it would be a good idea to post the announcment of the euro-friendly chat to some of the national OS/2 newsgroup in Europe!
<kidmarc>	So I didn't miss anything... eh?
<BobStJohn>	But .. I like the earlier start time ... 10 AM PST, noon CST, 1 PM EST .. and early evening in Europe ..
<mandie>	Bob: so do you want me to send out an announcement for this Friday or next Friday?
<BobStJohn>	Do it on a weekday .. and I think I can get Kim to participate ..
<BobStJohn>	Can be this Friday .. can be next Friday ... I'm here to serve!
<Blackbird>	Can't be LAST FRiday....LOL
<BobStJohn>	Well .. it *could* be last Friday .. but that would be wrong ...
<WarpedOS2>	Bob, and everybody...I gotta run....I hope to talk to ya this week...maybe
<Sector>	Hmmm, so BobStJohn is now a server"
<WarpedOS2>	bye mandie...
<BobStJohn>	Sector You need to get out more.
<Blackbird>	nite Warpedos2
<mandie>	Bob: I'll schedule for December 8 at 10am PST
<BobStJohn>	So, we're shutting down?
<Sector>	But where would I go"
<mandie>	see ya :)
<Sector>	No need to shutdown
<BobStJohn>	Sector Ask someone who cares .. ?
<RumpleS>	Anywhere but that computer maybe Sector!
<StevenL>	Sector, there is the possibility of leaving town...
<WarpedOS2>	shlaf gut...everyone..
<StevenL>	There's always SCOUG meetings.
<BobStJohn>	gute nacht ... bis morgan
<StevenL>	Ja, das gut.
<Blackbird>	What the heck is a shlaf gut????
<BobStJohn>	sleep well
<DSOM_eCS>	German night at #VOICE.
<RumpleS>	I need to get out of AU more! 8-)
<Fido2>	pst = pacific standard time
<StevenL>	RumpleS, the day is young yet down there...
<mandie>	Blackbird: it's what you get after drinking alot of german beer :)
<BobStJohn>	Well, I appreciate the time, the attention, the business ... and, as I used to say when IBM was my employer ... don't be a stranger .. I'm here to help (you) ...
<StevenL>	Who knows what could happen.
<JoSt>	I think it is Schlaf Gut!
<kidmarc>	It is
<mandie>	Bob: we appreciate what Serenity Systems is doing also....
<BobStJohn>	JoSt points for effort
<BobStJohn>	mandie Thanks ...
<BobStJohn>	I'm going to have a nice bowl of ice cream .. don't tell Chrissy ..or my wife.
<kidmarc>	Tschu
<MADodel>	OK, we will try to get a transcript of this up on the VOICE site tomorrow
<BobStJohn>	tschusss?
<kidmarc>	Hey the sharp S worked!
<Sector>	But can we tell your wife about Chrissy"
<mandie>	lol
<JoSt>	kidmarc: Didn't get through to me!
<BobStJohn>	kidmarc Not on my display it didn't
<Blackbird>	or mine
<kidmarc>	Ah damn
<StevenL>	Nor here.
<BobStJohn>	Sector Sure ... but don't tell Rat
<Fido2>	what is city is on the pacific side of usa?
<greg2>	got here
<mandie>	BobStJohn: thanks for coming tonight and I'll get out an announcement for Dec. 8 at 10a PST
<greg2>	San Francisco
<StevenL>	Los Angeles?
<MADodel>	There's a small town called Los Angeles
<Sector>	LA, San Fransisco, San Diego
<BobStJohn>	Fido2 Kim is in Monterey Park, near LA
<Blackbird>	got a little black square to the right of the U
<BobStJohn>	I'm gone ... I am what was ..
<StevenL>	GTIrc showed nothing.
<Fido2>	need to work backwards to fine the time it is here
<mandie>	abel!!
<MADodel>	Also don't forget next Monday night at 8PMEST, we have a Speakup with Sundial Systems
<Sector>	10:00am PST = 06:00pm GMT / UT
<mandie>	fido: where are you?
<StevenL>	Get Goran Ivankovic's World Clock.
<Sector>	Hi Abel, you scared BobStJohn...
<mandie>	MAD: that's going to be a fun night!
<Abel>	apparently..
<MADodel>	VIRC showed [22:24:36] Tschu
<kidmarc>	Tschuss
<Sector>	Fido2 your 17 hours ahead of PST
<Fido2>	4am saturday
<Fido2>	it would be
<mandie>	going to run.....
<Sector>	Bye mandie
<StevenL>	I show Synday at 2:30 or so now.
<Abel>	cya mandie.
<mandie>	thanks to everyone for attending tonight! Don't miss Monday's speakup with Sundial :)