SpeakUp with Peter Nielsen, author of PMView, from 12/20/99

<freiheit>	Hmm, I just downloaded those "difficult images" that were mentioned in the PMView mailing list -- Oddly I'd never seen them mentioned on the site -- and one of them shows with an error marker in v2. :b
<freiheit>	I suppose that would qualify for making it difficult.
<Peter>	Text.tif is corrupt. However, PMView v1.x fails to report it. v2.0 does it correctly...
<freiheit>	Ahh.
<Peter>	And v2.0 pads the corrupt (=missing in this case) lines with a single color. v1.x probably pats it with "noise"
<Peter>	FWIW, there is a link to the image on the site. "Test the quality of your current viewer..."
<freiheit>	Ohhhh!
<freiheit>	I do remember seeing that. But since my current viewer was PMView, I never thought to look further. :)
<Sector>	Hello Rumple
<Rumple>	g'day Sector
<Sector>	Hi SteveS
<SteveS>	Hi all.
<freiheit>	Anyone have a digital camera they'll lend me for about an hour? :b
*	freiheit needs to put some stuff on Ebay that won't fit on his scanner. *
<Sector>	Sorry don't got one
<Sector>	If I did I might loan it to you if you promised not to point it at yourself...
<freiheit>	Heheh, no problem there.
*	Sector wouldn't want to break it... *
<freiheit>	Yeah, I gotcha.
<freiheit>	:)
*	freiheit chants, "PMView! PMView! For BeOS! PMView!" *
<freiheit>	}:)
*	freiheit is shameless. *
<Sector>	Oh well
<freiheit>	Hello |Chrissy|.
<Sector>	wb |Chrissy|
<|Chrissy|>	hey
<Mr-Data>	hello
<Sector>	Hello Mr-Data
<Sector>	Hi Smaze
<Smaze>	hey Sector
*	Sector thinks it's starting to get crowded in here *
<freiheit>	Hi there Mr-Data, Smaze.
<Smaze>	hi freiheit
<Mr-Data>	hi freiheit
<Mr-Data>	isn't there supposed to be an early speakup tonight?
<Sector>	Yup
<Sector>	*** The topic for #voice is: SpeakUp Tonight!! PMView! 7pm EST 4pm PST
*	freiheit looks at his clock. 4:06. *
<freiheit>	:)
<Sector>	Can't start yet, mandie's not here
<freiheit>	Mandie!!!!
<freiheit>	Where are youuuu??
<Abraxas>	Well, I don't know (for sure) what time it is in Finland ... buT I'd say we can start whenever Peter is Ready
<Peter>	It's 2:08 AM here :-) I'm ready to start any time...
<Smaze>	it's 2.10am in Finland.. :)
<Sector>	02:09am
<Abraxas>	OK ... then we'll start :-)
<Abraxas>	far be it from me to deny anyone sleep :-)
<Abraxas>	VOICE, in our continuing effort to bring more information to OS/2 users ... Is happy to be able to host this Speakup session with Peter Nielsen, the author of PMView
<freiheit>	ZZZzzzz wha--?!
<Abraxas>	Peter ... the room is yours :-)
<Peter>	Thanks!
<Peter>	Well, I guess all of you here knows who I am (if not, please ask ;-)
<Peter>	I guess it's best if you start by asking me all questions you may have...
<Peter>	PMView v2.0 is ready for release. Right now it is up to BMT MIcro
<freiheit>	Well the big question I think is: How long before the new registration system is up and running?
<freiheit>	heheh, Okay nevermind the question. :b
<Peter>	It shouldn't take too long.
<Abraxas>	Perhaps Peter could tell us all (Registered users) .. how the new registration will work
<Peter>	BMT Micro will have a web page where you can upgrade your old v1.x keys
<Peter>	There will be three upgrade options:
<Peter>	1. Free upgrade to v2.0 lifetime key
<Peter>	2.Sell your OS/2 key and get a limited WIndows key ($$)
<Peter>	3.Free upgrade to v2.0 lifetime key and buy Windows key at a discounted price
<Abraxas>	Any idea on when this will all be available?
<Peter>	I have provided BMT the tools they need
<Peter>	Unfortunately they are configuring two new servers this week and have hired a db consultant etc.... Bad timing...
<Abraxas>	Yeah ... I saw the new "look" to their website a bit earlier
<Abraxas>	Am I to understand that anyone who is not already a Registered User of PMView will no longer be able to register a "Lifetime" license?
<Peter>	Correct!
<Abraxas>	I guess I'm one of the "lucky ones" , then :-)
<Peter>	New licenses for OS/2 and all licenses for Windows will only be valid for v2.x
<ManfredU>	But it will probably take a while until v3 will be released?
<Peter>	The new registration key system allows for buying one key for many systems and also leys us generate multi-user keys (i.e. so that PMView actually *displays* in the About dialog that it is a multi-user license)
<Peter>	For instance take this PMView v2.0 serial number: "12345-OOWU200"
<Peter>	It it a lifetime OS/2 license *and* a Windows v2.0 license for 200 users
<freiheit>	I wish I had 200 users to use PMView. :)
*	Sector makes a note of that number... ;> *
<Peter>	The new PMView v2.0 keys will consist of three parts: Name, Srial number, And a 34 digit key
<freiheit>	I don't think it would do you any good without the registration key that goes with it. :)
*	Sector didn't really think it would *
<freiheit>	Peter, were there any last minute changes made between the "final beta" and the official release which is now waiting for BMT?
<Sector>	Hello jeffk
<jeffk>	Hello!
<Peter>	freiheit: Yes.
*	|Chrissy| has set away! (auto away after idling 15 minutes) .gz. *
<Peter>	The priority boost system is not working in the final beta.
<freiheit>	Also, to ManfredU's question about how long it might be before v3 is released, are you already working on a feature list for v3 or are you taking a well-deserved rest for a while?
<Peter>	No, I'm not yet working on v3. I will start with it as soon as v2.0 is out the door (and I'm taking a rest in the meantime)
<Peter>	The first thing to do for v3 is to get rid of the IBM OCL library.
<freiheit>	Yes, I recall many discussions in the beta list about OCL. It will be good to see it go. :)
<ManfredU>	Whats this?
<Peter>	IBM Open Class Library. A user interface cross-platform library made by IBM. Excellent design but with an implementation that sucks big time...
<Sector>	Hello Swanee
<Sector>	MODE +o Swanee
<Swanee>	Hi Sector
*	Sector notes Swanee is back to normal *
<Peter>	PMView v3 will be available for Linux.
*	Swanee is shamed. He "assumed" 8EST rather than 7EST... :-( *
<Kick-n-It>	Peter: What are some of the differences between the OS/2 Version and Windows Version?
<VoiceBot>	MODE +o Projects
<Sector>	MODE +o Projects
<Sector>	Hello Projects
*	Swanee is early for the wrong time period *
<Projects>	hiya Sector
<Peter>	Kick-n-it: WIndows doesn't support Extended Attributes. The Windows version consequently only has one thumbnail mode: On-the-fly
<Projects>	Swanee LIVES in the wrong time period :)
<Abraxas>	As you all should know, by now, the developers of Embellish have "given up" .. and released the last
<Abraxas>	version of their app for free ... there was some talk, in the PMView Discussion list, regarding
<Abraxas>	incorporating some (or all) of the Embellish code into the next version of PMView ....
<Abraxas>	Have you given any thought to this idea?
<Peter>	Most of their code is already available in form of open-source Unix apps.
<jeffk>	Any plans for supporting animated GIFs?
<Peter>	And I doubt DadaWare is going to give away the source code...
<Abraxas>	Well .. stranger things have happened :-)
<Peter>	I am seriously considering supporting animated GIFs. The problem is that image editing doesn't match well with animation...
<jeffk>	You could at least be able to select a frame# to load and edit....
<Peter>	You can do that in PMView v1.x (not edit, but load a frame)
<jeffk>	With an option to have the change reflected in all frames.
<Peter>	Yes. However, what most users want is the ability to *display* animated GIFs
<Peter>	Editing multi-page formats will definitely be available in a future version.
<jeffk>	Also, is there a way to save an image without it automatically creating the thumbnail?
<Peter>	Yes. Disable the Thumbnail->Saving Creates option in the FOC
<freiheit>	jeffk, yes. In the File Open (or File Save) container, right click in an empty space (ie. not on the thumbnail) and disable the "Saving Creates" feature.
<jeffk>	I guess that feature wasn't there in older versions (which is all I have).
<tcaptain>	Is there any reason why a jpg made under PMVIEW OS/2 would fail to display in a Windows program?
<Peter>	Yes. It's there in v1.x
<jeffk>	Oh! I see it now... I expected to see something in the Options notebook for it.
<ManfredU>	Will v.2 be available in different languages? I think v1.x is, right?
<Peter>	Yes. If the windows program isn't fully JFIF compatible. Make sure that you disably the "Optimize entropy encoding" and "Progressive JPEG" options. First then you can be sure that all apps can read it.
<Peter>	v2 will be available in German soon after the English version is GA
<Peter>	Later in French and probalby also in Spanish
<Peter>	soon= < 4 weeks
<ManfredU>	ok thanks for the info.
<mandie>	g'evening :)
<ManfredU>	Can i switch to another language with my reg key?
<Peter>	Yes
<Abraxas>	Hello, mandie
<Sector>	Hello mandie
<mandie>	hiya Dan :)
<mandie>	Sector :)
<Sector>	MODE +o mandie
<mandie>	you think my bot would be a bit nicer to me :)
<Sector>	You need to train her better
<mandie>	Peter: welcome and thank you for joining us tonight for the speakup!
<jeffk>	Hey there, mandie!
<mandie>	you have done a "Wonderful"! job with pmview!!!!
<mandie>	jeffk!!!! hi there!!! ;)
<Peter>	mandie: Thanks!
<mandie>	so is it ready for ordering from bmt now?
<Peter>	No. BMT needs to get the key update system running first...
<mandie>	maybe I should hold the questions until we officially start
<mandie>	ah, ok
<mandie>	oh my gosh!!1
<mandie>	I forgot we were starting at 7 :( sorry I'm late folks
<mandie>	how rude!
<Swanee>	mandie: I think we started an hour ago. (I was only 40 minutes late) :-)
<mandie>	Swanee: I just got a "reminder" :(
<Swanee>	:-)
<mandie>	guess I'll need to read the logs :(
<Sector>	Swanee you where not quite 40 minutes late...
<mandie>	Peter: are we discussing both windoze and os/2 pmview?
<Swanee>	Thanks Sector. You're so good to me.
<Peter>	Yes
<Sector>	*** Swanee (swanee@bay2-15.daktel.com) has joined #voice [16:36:16]
<Recusant>	Peter: Have you considered using NTFS streams to support cached thumbnails?
<Peter>	Recrusant: No. I doubt Windows users would welcome this feature. Also, it does not provide folder thumbnails like the OS/2 EAs do...
<mandie>	Peter: in win98 I have all graphic formats assoc with pmview..yet there are times that I will click on one from windows commander (file manager) and it will say it can't open it and it only shows the dir and not the entire path to the file...other times it works fine
<mandie>	whew!
<mandie>	oops...it actually just shows the drive...ie j:\ and not even the dir path
<Peter>	Hmmm... is there a space in the filename?
<mandie>	hmm..hadn't thought of that..I'll check
<mandie>	no actually the one I just tried is 3_crazyOP.jpg
<Peter>	Try renaming it by removing the underscore
<mandie>	it is buried down in subdirectories...I just copying it to a directory and the file in the sub and it opened fine
<Peter>	Maybe one of the directories contains a space?
<mandie>	originally it was in the 5th subdirectory
<mandie>	yes sir!
<Peter>	Let me check that...
<mandie>	it won't open in graphic file that in the NetObjects Fusion 4.0 subdirs
<Peter>	That shouldn't be a problem... I
<Peter>	What happens if you open the folder that contains the file and double-click on it?
<mandie>	same thing
<mandie>	the status bar just says Netobjects : Cannot open file
<Peter>	Open a command prompt and cd to the PMView directory.
<Peter>	Then try typing pmview "full_path_and_file_name" (with quotation marks!)
<mandie>	ok, sec
<Peter>	My guess is that PMView is that PMView is lauched with missing quotaion marks in the file name.
<mandie>	no go
<mandie>	oopss..wait typo :(
<jeffk>	{wave} *poof*
<mandie>	it worked fine
<mandie>	Peter: but when I moved that file to a different directory..it worked ok
<Peter>	Yes, because then there was no space in the file or directory name, right?
<mandie>	right
<Peter>	THe problem is that PMView is being launched without quotation marks around the file name. This is a windows configuration error.
<mandie>	figures :(
<Peter>	So instead of seeing parameter1: "d:\my images\test.gif". PMView sees parameter1: "d:\my" parameter2: "images\test.gif"
<mandie>	ahh ok
<mandie>	well, then I'll just continue to leave pmview open and d&d when I need to view those files
<Peter>	:-)
<mandie>	where there's a will..... :)
<mandie>	Peter: sorry for the mis-message :)
<Peter>	mis-message? :-)
<mandie>	:)
<Peter>	Are there any Linux users here tonight?
<ManfredU>	not really
<Swanee>	Not I
<Sector>	Hmmm, could be some hidding in the shadows...
<freiheit>	OS/2 and BeOS only, here.
*	|Chrissy| raises her hand slowly *
*	Sector sees at least four at the moment *
<ManfredU>	I did install Linux not long ago, but do not use it much until now, am used to my installed apps on OS/2 and NT
<Peter>	PMView v3 will be available for Linux and I'm facing a tough choice regarding the selection of user interface library. It looks like Qt (KDE) is the way to go...
<|Chrissy|>	Im happy to hear that :)
<ManfredU>	Will that mean that it runs only with KDE?
<Peter>	No. But it will have the look & feel of KDE...
<ManfredU>	I see
<Sector>	Hmmm, how about configurable GUI so you can choose your look and feelù
<Peter>	I have to use one of the available libraries...
<Recusant>	Peter: What libraries are you deciding between?
*	freiheit notes there is no UI battle on BeOS, and the file system does support "extended attributes" similar to OS/2. (another shameless plug, I know) *
<Swanee>	I'd like to say that I have been using the 2.0 beta for most of the summer and it has been very solid all along. (Maybe I'm not working it hard enough) Great job on a terrific program Peter.
*	Sector looked at BeOS when it first came out for the PC compatables but didn't support SCSI then... *
<ManfredU>	I agree
<ManfredU>	Do they now?
<freiheit>	Yes.
<Peter>	What is the current version of BeOS? 4.5?
<ManfredU>	Right. The second time I looked at it they didn't support my graphics adapter....
<freiheit>	4.5 -- but the Opera/Be press release hints that r5 might be out in 1Q2000.
<Peter>	It multitasks great here on 4 CPUs...
<Swanee>	Peter: Braggert! :-)
<Peter>	However, the programming tools are not up to date AFAIK...
<freiheit>	Regardless, I'm not giving up my OS/2 license of PMView. I'd just add a new license. :)
<ManfredU>	I have also 4 CPU's, one for every PC...
<Peter>	It is not impossible that v3 is available for *both* Linux and BeOS...
<mandie>	Peter: problem is solved....
<Peter>	Great! What was it?
<Abraxas>	mandie ... what did you do ... boot to OS/2 :-)
<mandie>	I never use windoze explorer...the assoc were incorrect in there and once I changed them, windows commander has no problems with the files
<mandie>	even though I had the assoc set in windows commander...you know how those MS products want to have control :)
<Peter>	Hehe... you can simulate the same problem in OS/2. Just type "%1" in the "Parameters" field
<mandie>	I have NO problems in Os/2 :)
<Projects>	hehehe... simulated bug :)
<Abraxas>	mandie ... hehehe .. I know you don't :-)
<mandie>	and proud of it!
<mandie>	peter was a savior to me
<Peter>	OS/2 does have a small problem... Rename a file to %test.gif ... Not nice...
<Abraxas>	Isn't "%" one of those forbidden characters in filenames/directory names?
<mandie>	I don't like to try "not nice" things
<Peter>	No, it's not forbidden...
<Peter>	If a file starts with a % sign, it can't be opened by double clicking on it (but drag&drop still works fine)
<Projects>	that's not "not nice"
<Peter>	It's not nice to me, since people report it as "PMView bugs", when it is a problem with WPS...
<Projects>	ah, yes...
<MADodel>	Why would anyone use a % in a filenameù
<Peter>	Good question...
<mandie>	lack of knowing better?
<Projects>	"% sales in 1999"
<mandie>	the only think I will use is an underscore
<mandie>	projects: percent_sales_1999
<mandie>	:)
<Projects>	mandie: sales99 <-- my choice :)
<Peter>	%sales99 (not even Y2K compliant)
<mandie>	hehe
<Projects>	hehehe
<Abraxas>	I use "_", "-", and " " (space) ... if I can'tuse those 3 characters, in a 256 character filenem ... and figure out what the file is ... I need to go back to a paper filing system :-)
*	Projects needs to go back to a paper filing system too... less paper :p *
<Abraxas>	In OS/2 .. the "%" character is used to signify a replaceable parameter in a command filename or path ....
<Peter>	Hmm... but I guess PMView's thumbnails are indended to make things easier for people that have file names like %&77234,gif
<Projects>	pr0n
<Peter>	I don't understand what WPS is trying to do with the % character in the file name though...
<ManfredU>	I see a small difference between the OS/2 and the Win version: The win version always has scrollbars. Is this meant to be this way?
<Peter>	No.
<ManfredU>	I mean when a open an image an the window is resized to the picture size.
<Peter>	Do you use some kind of Windows add-on (screen enhancer) ?
<ManfredU>	Yes. Windowblinds.
<Peter>	Yes. Windowblinds is not working correctly.
<Peter>	The menus also look horrible...
<mandie>	my windows version doesn't always have scrollbars
<Peter>	mandie: He's usning Windowblinds...
<mandie>	ah, ok
<Peter>	Manfred: Do you have their latest 1.06 version?
<mandie>	is it time for us to unsubscribe to the beta list or are you just going to say "Happy Holidays" and shut it down?
<ManfredU>	Yes, Just unloaded it and the scrollbar probelm went away
<Peter>	Someting like that. You don't need to unsubscribe.
<Peter>	Manfred: I've tested the newest shareware version of WB and there was several problems... It is possible that the registered version of WB fixes the problems, but...
<ManfredU>	I don't think that the registered version is differnt. Probably not easy changing windows like this without side effects...
<Sector>	MODE +o TheSeer
<Peter>	The unregistered version is at 1.01 and the registered at 1.06. Thus, they give more bug fixes to registered users...
<ManfredU>	Has 1.01 already scinned scrollbars?
<Peter>	I've only tried 0.97 and 1.01. Both have the problems. I don't know about 1.06 though...
<mandie>	DavidA: hi :)
<DavidA>	Hi mandie!
<Sector>	Hello DavidA
<Sector>	Anything else or shall we let Peter go to a well deserved restù
<WarpHoss>	Peter :Before this party breaks up>> On behalf of VOICE I want to thank you for your visit to #voice and our Speakup. We wish you and yours a very Merry Christmas! <<
<Peter>	Thanks! I wish all of you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Bugfree Year!
<DSOMber1>	Hello all.
<eTronik>	whoa! this is packed today :-)
<Sector>	Hello DSOMber1
<eTronik>	what !? did I come in late ?
<mandie>	Peter: thanks for all of you rhard work on pmview
<|Chrissy|>	hey DSOMber1
<Sector>	Hi eTronik
<eTronik>	arrrrgh !!!
<Sector>	Yup, Speakup started at 07:00pm EST
<mandie>	and most of all...for your support and for listening to your useres
<Peter>	mandie: You're welcome!
<WarpHoss>	!ask log
<VoiceBot>	[log] http://abelmcc5.rbdc.com/cgi-bin/ghosthoss.cmd? (Sector)
<eTronik>	I just remembered now...
<eTronik>	lets start over !! :-)
<eTronik>	eheh
<mandie>	g'nite all...have a safe and happy holiday!
<|Chrissy|>	nite
<mandie>	btw...I'll be leaving for FL on the 27th and returning 1/10/00
<Sector>	Godonight mandie
<Peter>	G'nite mandie!
<mandie>	nytol :)
<Peter>	I'll be here for another 20 minutes in case someone has any questions... (until 4:30 AM EET ;-)
*	WarpHoss notes this is a reaaly good app or there would be more questions ! *
<eTronik>	I just don't wanna repeat the questions....
<eTronik>	gotta go
<eTronik>	bye all
<DSOMber1>	It seems that I forgot about this SpeakUp....
<Sector>	Happens
<Sector>	MODE +o dervish
<Sector>	Hi dervish
<MADodel>	dervish: you up early?
<Sector>	Isn't it past your bedtimeù
<dervish>	Hi - sorry I'm late. Got held up sorting out Christmas at my mother's
<MADodel>	Ah Christmas is still 5 days away according to my calendar
<dervish>	Yes, I shall be ready for bed soon. Got another office Christmas party tomorrow!
<dervish>	Have I managed to miss everything?
<MADodel>	Gee that all you folks do in England is party?
<Sector>	Yup, but there's a log
<Sector>	!ask log
<VoiceBot>	[log] http://abelmcc5.rbdc.com/cgi-bin/ghosthoss.cmd? (Sector)
<dervish>	Yes - isn't that how you guys got started?
<Sector>	Hmmmmmmmmmm
<MADodel>	something to do with tea as I recall
<Sector>	Wasn't that around Bostonù
<dervish>	And native aAmerican costumes?
<Sector>	But we threw that party for the English
<dervish>	Probably the first hippies!
<Peter>	Goodnight all!
<MADodel>	goodnight Peter
<DSOMber1>	Folks...don't forget #newyear on the 31st Dec, 1999. Details at http://www.deepchaos.com/newyear.html
<cacuzza>	actually the Brits were trying to flood the tae market with cheap tea, and A guy named Hancock was holding a bunch of expensive smuggled tea a Voila the tea party Not hippies, just a bunch of guys like say Bill Gates??
<dervish>	Hm... I just got this mental image of someone throwing lots of Windoze NT CDs over the side of a boat!
<cacuzza>	They make great coasters
<Sector>	Nice image
<dervish>	Or clay pigeons?
<MADodel>	Pollution
<MADodel>	I tought that's what AOL CD's were for?
<dervish>	No - they breed. I keep finding them wherever I look. In drawers, in pockets... everywhere!
<cacuzza>	Hey Hey I belong to "Save The Skeet" It's terrible how those poor skeet live. Wrapped in old newspaper in a box
<dervish>	I've a nasty suspicion that if you put on in a drawer with a lot of other CDs it assymilates them and they all turn into AOL CDs
*	Sector prefered it when they used to send out floppies *
*	Sector got something like 63 free 3.5" HD disks that way *
<dervish>	Yes, you could reformat those.
<dervish>	How do they fill up so much of a CD with AOL?
<dervish>	Is it just to stop you reformatting them that they've gone on to CDs?
<Sector>	Think about the os it uses
<dervish>	Oh yes. Of course. It's probably calling loads of files just to write copyright notices.
<cacuzza>	such a terrible waste of bandwidth
<Sector>	Hello Ironhead
<Ironhead>	Hi Sector !
<dervish>	Hi Ironhead!
<Ironhead>	hi dervish
<Sector>	Hidallas
<dervish>	Hi dallas!
<cacuzza>	Hi Ironhead
<|Chrissy|>	hey Ironhead and dallas
<cacuzza>	Is the ggod or bad?
<dallas>	hello folks, I was on the wrong channel.
<Sector>	What channel was thatù
<cacuzza>	It's been nice, but I gotta go until the speakup nice to hear from y' all
<dallas>	I was talking on scoug to voice people
<Sector>	Hmmmmù
<dallas>	I heard DaveW was out of town on a business trip.
<Sector>	It's possible
<Sector>	He does that sometimes
<dervish>	I'd better go soon, anyway. I have a spreadsheet to write - It's for working out the wine bill for lunch tomorrow!
*	Sector hopes the spreadsheet has enough capacity *
<dervish>	Luckily, I'm writing it on a Psion palmtop - if I were writing it in Exxcel on NT - not a chance!
*	Sector wonders why anyone would want to do that... *
<dallas>	Excel on an NT, you'll be lucky if it staus up till then....
<dervish>	Our budget officer has recently got her NT and it cannot handle her Excel spreadsheets.
<Sector>	!ask log
<VoiceBot>	[log] http://abelmcc5.rbdc.com/cgi-bin/ghosthoss.cmd? (Sector)
<dallas>	tell me about the psion..
<Sector>	Hello Blackbird
<Blackbird>	hi Sector......I forgot.....
<dervish>	The psion is a now old (Psion 3) palm top that has it's own unique brand of OS and multitasks quite well with a native Office suite. It easily out performs windoze with only 2 MB of ram!
<dervish>	It saves files to Windoze 3
<dallas>	hello BB
<Blackbird>	hi dallas
<dervish>	ANyone know about a warp back up for Psion with import filters to OS/2 native apps and I'll marry him and have his babies.
<dallas>	what kind of processor does it have? who wrote the OS, psion??
<dervish>	Psion wrote it.
<dervish>	No, I can't find anything about the processor in te literature.
<dallas>	so EMX wouldn't be native enough for you dervish?
<dervish>	Dunno.
<warspite>	does anyone know if the Voice Speak Up with Peter Neilsen of PMView has been, or is coming?
<Sector>	Over and done with
<Sector>	There is a log available though
<warspite>	Thanks.
<Sector>	!ask log
<VoiceBot>	[log] http://abelmcc5.rbdc.com/cgi-bin/ghosthoss.cmd? (Sector)
<Blackbird>	gone to scoug....
<dervish>	Anyway, I'd better go. I've got a spreadsheet to crawl under.
<Mr-Data>	cya all l8r
<dervish>	By everyone!
<dallas>	hello Ironhead
<Sector>	Hello again Mr-Data
<Mr-Data>	hi sector
<Mr-Data>	do you have any idea who it is that runs that web server with the logs of voice meetings?
<Mr-Data>	I'm curious about that cgi that's used to do it.
<Sector>	WarpHoss
<Mr-Data>	warphoss: you around?
<Sector>	Assuming you mean the live log
<Mr-Data>	Sector: thanks.
<Mr-Data>	yeah
<Sector>	Your Welcome
<WarpHoss>	yes.
<Mr-Data>	guess I shoulda figured with a name of ghosthoss.cmd :)
<WarpHoss>	What's up Mr.-Data?
<WarpHoss>	:)
<Mr-Data>	WarpHoss: did you write that script that logs the meetings?
<Mr-Data>	or did you find it somewhere?
<WarpHoss>	Timka and I did.
<Mr-Data>	it's pretty nice... does it actually connect to IRC, and log, or does it require you to be logging with your client, and it just reads the logs from that?
<WarpHoss>	logging from a client.
<Sector>	VoiceLOG does it
<Mr-Data>	ah... but it's not actually that CMD that does it... right?
<Mr-Data>	yer just "tail"ing a file?
<WarpHoss>	the .cmd displays the file.
<WarpHoss>	if you hit reload...
<Mr-Data>	ok, that's what I thought, I was trying to figure out how the h*ll you could get a client with a cmd... :)
<WarpHoss>	:)
<Mr-Data>	I've found a library that lets you open a tcpip connection to a server, but it seemed like it was mostly for minor stuff (like Telnet).. and that's something you would never use to describe IRC.
<WarpHoss>	rxsoc?
<Mr-Data>	I used that library to create a script that telneted to a router and downloaded configs automatically, and that was a PAIN.
<Mr-Data>	yeah.. that's the one.
<Mr-Data>	+k
<Sector>	Hmmm, you could telnet into a server and run an IRC client though...
<WarpHoss>	kewl library.
<Mr-Data>	Sector: yeah, but you have to, in the script, read in EVERY packet manually.
<Mr-Data>	so every little bit that was typed in would have to have a read.
<Mr-Data>	WarpHoss: yeah, it is.. just not the easiest thing in the world to use :)
<WarpHoss>	I used that and the ftp libraies to automate my webserver when I was a dynamic ip. :)
<dallas>	I used Kermit to connect to IRC, it's pretty kludgy, but telneting with it does make an IRC connection.
<Sector>	dallas here has Kermit setup to interface with an IRC client
<Mr-Data>	yeah, you CAN telnet to an IRC.. it's just a big kludge tho' like you said.
<Mr-Data>	and rxsock is not just a telnet, it will open any socket...
<dallas>	I'm not doing that right now, but running the client via kermit is possible.
<Mr-Data>	but with rxsock you have to read and write to/from the queue for every transaction, so when I type this, it would have to recognize the input, and process it... and if I want to send, it would have to push what I wanna send onto the queue for the socket...
<dallas>	your doing what, IRCing with rxscok?
<Mr-Data>	rxsock is great for when you have input at expected times (like a telnet to a router... I open the connection, wait for "password:" prompt, send password, wait for "Router>" prompt, send command, etc...) but with unexpacted input like you'd get with IRC, it would be tough
<Mr-Data>	no, I thought that Warphoss was.. for his web based logging...
<dallas>	what was the point (Sector ?) was driving at ?
<Sector>	What pointù
<Mr-Data>	dallas: I think it was that you can use a telnet to connect to IRC.
<dallas>	There was something about logging the sessions here or downloading router configuratoins?
<Mr-Data>	dallas: I was saying that RXSock is good for things like automating the backup of router configs, where the input is in expected order and expected timing...
<Mr-Data>	and I was trying to figure out how Warphoss is logging this channel to a webpage using a .cmd CGI script.
<dallas>	real time?
<WarpHoss>	real time...
<WarpHoss>	just use a log. no magic...
<Mr-Data>	WarpHoss: well, there's always magic when a program works.. :)
<WarpHoss>	hehe.
<dallas>	It wouldn't be too hard then to watch the channel with you're browser,
<dallas>	and use telnet to send you're comments
<Mr-Data>	dallas: other than that you have to reload to see new stuff...
<dallas>	might not be too hard to program such a thing.
<Mr-Data>	dallas: not super hard, just takes an event driven cmd.. :)
<Mr-Data>	or a real tight main loop
<WarpHoss>	I can set that page to auto-reload...
<WarpHoss>	except when it's big it's aggravating...
<Mr-Data>	exactly, I was just gonna say, if it was in realtime, you'd have to decide how big the page could get.
<WarpHoss>	a million lines....
<WarpHoss>	:)
<Mr-Data>	:)
<Mr-Data>	and you'd still have to log it to a file locally to reprint it out... so it's no sense in redesigning the wheel.. there's already stuff to connect to IRC and log.. may as well use it. :)
<Sector>	!ask log
<VoiceBot>	[log] http://abelmcc5.rbdc.com/cgi-bin/ghosthoss.cmd? (Sector)
<Mr-Data>	WarpHoss: but what you could do is use a form, and let the user decide how much of the log to view, then do the equivalent of a "tail" to the file, to only show, say 100 lines if that's all the user asks for.
<dallas>	yeah, I suppose so. That's one of the things I was doing hooking an IRC client to kermit.
<dallas>	yhes.
<dallas>	yes, that is. :-)
<WarpHoss>	All sorts of things I could do with it. This was a simple solution :)
<Mr-Data>	;)
<Mr-Data>	oh well, looks like bedtime :)
<Mr-Data>	cya l8r
<dallas>	xu
<dallas>	cu
<VoiceBot>	MODE +o Sector
<Sector>	Hello Mok
<Mok>	mmph.
<dallas>	'ello
<DSOMber1>	Hello Mok.
<|Chrissy|>	goodnight people
<DSOMber1>	Later all.
<Sector>	Hello RumpleS
<RumpleS>	g'day Sector
<Sector>	So long
<WarpHoss>	morning.
<WarpHoss>	MODE +o Abraxas
<lmaxson>	Still getting your server up, WH?
<WarpHoss>	u mean the linux machine?
<lmaxson>	Sorry I asked.
<WarpHoss>	I am still waiting on my dual board from micronics for the WSeB machine.
<Sector>	Grrrrr
<lmaxson>	dual processors?
<Sector>	Yup
<WarpHoss>	They are "investigating" the whereabouts of my 2 boards.
<Sector>	He's got the processors already
<WarpHoss>	yep dual cpu.
<WarpHoss>	and 128MB ram.
<WarpHoss>	and a 10gig hdd.
<WarpHoss>	and case.
<Sector>	Powersupply, video cardù
<lmaxson>	Expecting company?
<WarpHoss>	yep PS and video card.
<WarpHoss>	Expecting company? not sure what u mean.
<Sector>	Keyboard, monitorù
<WarpHoss>	yep. keyboard and monitor.
<WarpHoss>	rodent also.
<Sector>	Floppydrive, CDROM driveù
<WarpHoss>	yep.
<Sector>	Now if you had that motherboard...
<WarpHoss>	well at least they haven't blown me off...
<WarpHoss>	I seriously considered bidding on a quad cpu board at e-bay...
<Sector>	No they're still trying to decide what will get rid of you...
<Sector>	Quad PProù
<WarpHoss>	yep.
<WarpHoss>	that's what the guy told me... I never went and checked it out.
<Rat-Salad>	hmm
<Sector>	hmm whatù
<Rat-Salad>	heh my amp is picking up CB's again
<Rat-Salad>	sounds like truckers
<WarpHoss>	hmm I guess we will have some late arrivals for the discussion.
<Sector>	If we get em...
<Rat-Salad>	theres a discussion tonight?
<Sector>	WarpDoctor every Wednesday night @06:00pm EST
<|Chrissy|>	its 9 here
<Rat-Salad>	no its not
<lmaxson>	Let the discussion begin.
<|Chrissy|>	ok its 903
<Sector>	Err, it's 09:03 there
<Rat-Salad>	its 9:04 :)
<Sector>	But that should be 09:00pm EST, 06:00pm PST...
<|Chrissy|>	NOW its 904
<lmaxson>	Knock, knock.
<|Chrissy|>	come in
<lmaxson>	Can't.
<|Chrissy|>	why not?
<Sector>	Why notù
<lmaxson>	Waiting for the discussion to begin.
<lmaxson>	Sector made one of his few errors.
<Sector>	It can happen...
<lmaxson>	It's corrected now.
<lmaxson>	Where is WarpHoss?
<Sector>	Hmmm, checking out a quad PPro boardù
<lmaxson>	We must have slipped his mind.
<WarpHoss>	no not at all.
<Sector>	And such a slippery one he has
<lmaxson>	Well, then can someone read the minutes of the last meeting.
<lmaxson>	?
<WarpHoss>	Not I. I didn't log it :(
*	Sector slaps WarpHoss with a wet bot *
<lmaxson>	Did you have place where you would like to begin this meeting?
<lmaxson>	Other than the internet.
<WarpHoss>	I'd like to discuss the differences in requirements and implementation issues as they relate to WD.
<lmaxson>	Wherein do we have a difference?
<WarpHoss>	also for good measure... the distinction between 'Objectives' 'Requirements' and 'Implementation' issues.
<WarpHoss>	lynn I should have been more clear.
<lmaxson>	We have an objective: to support the information, software, and hardware needs of the OS/2 community.
<lmaxson>	We have two goals in the level of support offered: (1) maximize service level and (2) minimize user resolution time.
<lmaxson>	We have a requirement to determine the information (software, hardware) needs of the OS/2 community.
<lmaxson>	That's actually three generic requirements.
<Sector>	Hi tcaptain
<lmaxson>	We have decided as an implementation to act as a central directory to information at other sites.
<lmaxson>	That's it as far as I know.
<lmaxson>	So we have examples of an objective, goals, requirements, and implementation.
<lmaxson>	Where is the difficulty in distinguishing between them?
<WarpHoss>	There isn't now. :)
<WarpHoss>	We have decided as an implementation to act as a central directory to information at other sites.<---- \\that was what I was looking for.
<lmaxson>	We have three ways to determine user information needs. One, use the experience we have had. Two, ask the users (before the fact). And, three, wait until we get a request that we cannot service (after the fact).
<lmaxson>	I suggest that we concentrate on one and two as three hits us negatively on service level.
<WarpHoss>	3rd choice is not the most streamlined unless there is a snappy process in the application.
<lmaxson>	By definition we desire to maximise service level.
<lmaxson>	Frankly I favor two over the others as this leads to user themselves determining the support.
<WarpHoss>	if we do that.. doesn't WD need a process to handle this?
<lmaxson>	This involves them in the decision process, giving them the experience to evaluate trade-offs and priorities when the demand exceeds our supply ability.
<lmaxson>	The process is an ongoing voting mechanism as dynamic in response as changes occur in the user environment.
<lmaxson>	The voting mechanism allows users to enter requests, have an unlimited discussion on any request, allow users to set a priority among the requests, and then users determine the implementation schedule.
<WarpHoss>	So is the voting mechanism an implementation of it's own?
<lmaxson>	Yes.
<WarpHoss>	So it's going to have to have it's own requirements list?
<lmaxson>	It comes as a response to determining user needs.
<lmaxson>	I offered you the four requirements: (1) enter request, (2) discuss request, (3) prioritize requests, and (4) schedule implementation.
<WarpHoss>	I can see the relationships among them much better now.
<lmaxson>	Let's understand that if we do this properly, we will have provided a universal means of implementing a full democratic process, including elections, at an international level.
<WarpHoss>	err yeah... but let's not let that muddy the water... :)
<lmaxson>	The point is that it is not simply a voting mechanism, but the entire voting process from introduction of issues to their resolution.
<lmaxson>	It's completely open and public, no backroom deals.
<WarpHoss>	Can the role of Communicator be automated?
<lmaxson>	No, only his clerical support.
<lmaxson>	I don't understand why you would want to automate the role as opposed to the supporting set of activities.
<WarpHoss>	ok. I see that. We are getting to the point where WD could use a "Communicator."
<WarpHoss>	I wanted to automate both.
<WarpHoss>	The Communicator and the subset of activities..
<lmaxson>	The best you can do is offer guidelines and examples.
<lmaxson>	These provide others templates to means of written communications.
<lmaxson>	Even at that for consistency you need an editor, one of the sub-roles of a communicator.
<lmaxson>	That's difficult to automate. So difficult I haven't even considered it.
<lmaxson>	Remember the difficult is not impossible.
<lmaxson>	Just damn hard.
<WarpHoss>	hmmm it just seems to me that the communicator could have his own agenda... and ruin the integrity of the process as a whole.
<WarpHoss>	his== his/her ;
<lmaxson>	Apparently you cannot even automate translations. Automating creative writing has got to be even more difficult.
<lmaxson>	his == his/her, yes.
<lmaxson>	No man is an island includes women as well.
<lmaxson>	I missed that earlier comment. The communicator is a hired gun. He has no agenda except one we set. We are the ultimate judge of his efforts. He is hired for a writing skill, nothing else.
<lmaxson>	His job is to communicate in the best way possible.
<lmaxson>	We feed him the what, leaving the how up to him.
<lmaxson>	If we don't like his how, we fire him and hire someone else.
<lmaxson>	Pure contract work.
<lmaxson>	The term "user-directed" means just exactly that.
<lmaxson>	As far as the integrity of the process is concerned we are the greater threat.
<lmaxson>	In our rush to action.
<WarpHoss>	ok. well I see WD has a need for this communicator person.
<lmaxson>	Let's discuss this a bit.
<WarpHoss>	sure.
<lmaxson>	As WD grows its information base maintenance of the information becomes a major issue, in that we are not so much entering new information but reworking old either to support new user views or needs or changes in the environment itself.
<lmaxson>	That becomes a volume issue for quality control. At that point you need one voice in determining quality.
<lmaxson>	A communicator per se is not required until some point in the development of the information base.
<lmaxson>	Prior to that we can "experiment" with different forms with different users, using feedback from the users.
<lmaxson>	Again it would be nice to have an interactive voting process to allow users to aid in this determination.
<WarpHoss>	What is needed for an the voting implementation?
<WarpHoss>	strike an.
<WarpHoss>	we have your 4 requirements... how do we start actually building that mechanism?
<lmaxson>	We need an entry mechanism, one for ongoing discussion, another for dynamically setting and resetting priorities, and another for determining implementation sequence.
<lmaxson>	I shouldn't leapfrog you.
<lmaxson>	Obviously it's software.
<lmaxson>	That means taking it through the software development process.
<WarpHoss>	that's fine. How can we go about getting the first piece done.... "ongoing discussion" .
<WarpHoss>	anyone have any flowcharting SW for warp?
<lmaxson>	Wrong first piece. Entering the user request is first.
<lmaxson>	I have a DOS product, EasyFlow.
<WarpHoss>	It would be nice to have a graphical picture of the objectives and requirements ...
<WarpHoss>	and the relationships of all the parts to WD.
<WarpHoss>	IRC doesn't lend itself to imagery very well.
<lmaxson>	Why not just have them in outline form?
<lmaxson>	Pure text.
<lmaxson>	Two-dimensional text.
<lmaxson>	My dinner is ready. I have to leave for a while.
<WarpHoss>	Enjoy your dinner.
<Sector>	Ok Lynn
<Sector>	Save some for the rest of us...
<Sector>	Hello Mok
<Sector>	Bye Mok...
<Sector>	Hello StevenL